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 Post subject: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:49 am 
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From the Easter Proclamation

Quote:
Who for our sake paid Adam's debt to the eternal Father,
and, pouring out his own dear Blood,
wiped clean the record of our ancient sinfulness.
....
O truly necessary sin of Adam,
destroyed completely by the Death of Christ!


From Greek matins

Quote:
O Sun that did arise today * as a Groom from his chamber * from the all-holy sepulcher, * after plundering Hades, * and making death ineffective: ...


And from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians

"And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive." (15:22)

So a few things seem to be clear:

(I) Christ came to destroy the sin of Adam.
(II) This destruction is seen as "complete" and making the curse of death "ineffective"


So here are my questions:

1. In what sense has original sin been "wiped clean" if even the children of baptized parents are still born under the curse of Adam?

2. In what sense is the destruction of original sin "complete" if even the baptized have to suffer concupiscence their whole lives?

3. How is death made "ineffective" if we are all still going to die, and there will even be a second death for some?

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:16 am 
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In Adam, whole humanity fell from God's grace. Without the Redemption by Christ, no one would be able to be saved. The effect of Adam's sin is this separation from God. By his Sacrifice, the door to Heaven was opened. The stain of original sin can be erased at least such that man is not prevented from Heaven solely due to it.

MBS 25. "Original sin" is the hereditary but impersonal fault of Adam's descendants, who have sinned in him (Rom. v. 12). It is the loss of grace, and therefore of eternal life, together with a propensity to evil, which everybody must, with the assistance of grace, penance, resistance and moral effort, repress and conquer. The passion and death of the Son of God has redeemed the world from the hereditary curse of sin and death.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:23 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
In Adam, whole humanity fell from God's grace. Without the Redemption by Christ, no one would be able to be saved. The effect of Adam's sin is this separation from God. By his Sacrifice, the door to Heaven was opened. The stain of original sin can be erased at least such that man is not prevented from Heaven solely due to it.

MBS 25. "Original sin" is the hereditary but impersonal fault of Adam's descendants, who have sinned in him (Rom. v. 12). It is the loss of grace, and therefore of eternal life, together with a propensity to evil, which everybody must, with the assistance of grace, penance, resistance and moral effort, repress and conquer. The passion and death of the Son of God has redeemed the world from the hereditary curse of sin and death.


But the words "complete" and "wiped clean" seem very strong

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:06 am 
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The effect is applied in Baptism, which does destroy Original Sin in the recipient.

Death is ineffective in that it is no longer a terror.

The statements don't apply in general; they apply to those who are redeemed or becoming so.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:21 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:36 am 
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Right, like that.

Wait. Did I just agree with Doom?

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:31 am 
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is it lent already :shock: 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The effect is applied in Baptism, which does destroy Original Sin in the recipient.

Death is ineffective in that it is no longer a terror.

The statements don't apply in general; they apply to those who are redeemed or becoming so.


So to say OS is "destroyed completely" do we not have to say concupiscene which is in the baptized is not part of the whole of OS? Otherwise it is partially destroyed.

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Concupiscence is an effect of original sin, not the thing itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Concupiscence is an effect of original sin, not the thing itself.

In a per accidens causal series I suppose.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:16 pm 
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I think there can be some troubles when you try to do theology based on prayer or exhortation or whatnot. In the Salve Regina, we call our Lady "our life, our sweetness and our hope." How literally do you think you can take this claim, if you import it into a theological context? Yes, of course, lex orandi, lex credendi. That's a crucial insight. But the question is: how to move from worship to belief.

In the quotations you mention, this is the Church praying together at Easter in joy. When we speak of paying the debt of Adam and wiping clean the record of our sinfulness, we are speaking (a) as the spotless Bride of Christ and (b) one hopes as individual believers who have taken advantage of the season of Lent to confess our sins, do penance and amend our lives, and who are hence in a state of grace--as such, in us that record of sinfulness is indeed wiped clean, though there are likely some temporal effects remaining to be expiated. Or again, when we speak of the sin of Adam being completely destroyed, we're speaking from the standpoint of the Bride of Christ and that of the redeemed sinner in a state of grace. The prayer strongly, poetically, powerfully expresses those truths. To turn it into a piece of scholastic theology is, IMHO, to completely miss the point.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:52 pm 
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See Trent, Sess. V, can. 5. Since Original Sin is sin and concupiscence isn't, concupiscence isn't Original Sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:49 pm 
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I think that it is important to distinguish between atonement and salvation. Christ atoned for our sins through his sacrifice (which I will say is his life, passion, death and resurrection as a whole, and perhaps also his ascension, and not just his death on the cross), yet he didn't distribute salvation through this. Salvation, which is based on the atonement is distributed through baptism, and is also made new through the other sacraments and through the preaching of the Word.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:36 am 
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I think it important too that the Exultet does not say completely

O certe necessárium Adæ peccátum, quod Christi morte delétum est! O felix culpa, quæ talem ac tantum méruit habére Redemptórem

O certainly necessary sin of Adam, which was destroyed by the death of Christ.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:22 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
I think it important too that the Exsultet does not say completely

O certe necessárium Adæ peccátum, quod Christi morte delétum est!

O certainly necessary sin of Adam, which was destroyed by the death of Christ.


The Latin text does not, but the English version does, at least in the new translation. It's probably for increasing the length.

O truly necessary sin of Adam,
destroyed completely by the Death of Christ!
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship ... sultet.cfm


https://youtu.be/ZVwuc_CNswY?t=381 video; time set at the clause.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:47 pm 
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I don't take the translation as the authority, but the actual prayer and tradition. A translation is not the same thing, but really an interpretation of a text, in another tongue. Here, I don't think a local, 10 yr old text has much theological weight. But there centuries old and universal (among Latins at least) does

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Right, like that.

Wait. Did I just agree with Doom?


Implicitly but not explicitly, so it doesn’t count.

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 Post subject: Re: Original Sin after Calvary
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:52 pm 
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That's a relief.

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