Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 3   [ 57 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:53 pm 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:33 am
Posts: 3719
Religion: Catholic
Doom wrote:
If perfect acts of contrition were common, or easy, there would be no need for the sacrament of confession. I doubt that even one out of every 1 billion people has ever performed a perfect act of contrition. In fact, probably the only people who have ever done so are canonized saints.


I don’t think I agree with this for two reasons:

1) It is impossible to know the final state of any soul except those declared by the Church (e.g., sainted). Therefore, it is impossible to ascribe any odds to how common or uncommon acts of perfect contrition are....
2) I have known many people, including myself, who have been extremely sorrowful for their sins because they have offended God and not because they feared hell. Now, does that contrition rise to the level of “perfect”? In many cases it probably does not. However, the very fact that people think this way sets them well on that road.

We don’t know what graces our good and merciful God gives to the dying. While I’m a natural skeptic, have read “Will Many Be Saved?”, and therefore well-understand the road is very narrow, I have trust that our God loves His creation more than we’ll ever know and wants the best for everyone....and that gives me great hope.

_________________
"So mercifully blessed to be free from the ravages of intelligence." - Taken from Time Bandits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:22 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 7681
Location: India
Religion: Syro Malabar Christian
Doom wrote:
I doubt that even one out of every 1 billion people has ever performed a perfect act of contrition.

Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
God gives us sufficient grace to come back to Him. Nay, EVERY GRACE EFFICACIOUS FOR IMPERFECT CONTRITION, WAS SUFFICIENT FOR PERFECT CONTRITION. Perfect contrition is REALLY possible, not some theoretical thing. But even if referring to imperfect contrition, it is best to rouse that and strive to make perfect contrition as soon as one can after sinning, lest they become complacent in their spiritual death. And it is good, so that the habit, to turn to God, carries through at the moment of death.

Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
St. Thomas teaches that the grace of repentance is always sufficient for perfect contrition, so that when a man has imperfect contrition, the grace was sufficient for perfect, efficacious for imperfect.

Upper case in the original.

_________________
Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:09 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=370862

ETA:
Quote:
If perfect acts of contrition were common, or easy, there would be no need for the sacrament of confession.
A perfect act of contrition includes at least the virtual intention to go to confession at the next reasonable opportunity. "Virtual" is there to cover a person who does not know that confession is necessary but would go if he did know.


Obi-Wan is correct on this. There's a lot of debate about Lefebvre, some say that he is certainly in heaven for rejecting the modernist teachings of Vatican II....others say that he was certainly excommunicated, if they recognize the authority of Vatican II Popes.

We can say that Lefebvre was undoubtedly a Catholic, but perhaps his theological background was too traditional for the changes of Vatican II and it led to his "retirement" in which he founded the SSPX.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:01 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:54 pm
Posts: 5009
Location: Diocese of Austin, TX
Religion: Catholic
Archbishop Lefebvre signed the documents of Vatican II - so I don't think it's accurate to say he was too traditional for the changes at Vatican II.

_________________
Formerly Known as Louis-Marie Flambeau and RaginCajunJoe

"Be of good heart ... you who are children of Mary. Remember that she accepts as her children all those who choose to be so. Rejoice! Why do you fear to be lost, when such a a Mother defends and protects you?" - St. Alphonsus Liguori

"Blessed Virgin Mary - Immaculate Mother of God. Crushes Satan's head in her spare time." - CCB


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:06 pm 
Offline
Eminent
Eminent
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:59 am
Posts: 15929
Religion: Католик
Yes, Archbishop signed Vatican II documents. You will find signatures of the Council Fathers at the end of each document in Latin:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... /index.htm

Note that there were actually two Lefebvre’s: Cardinal Joseph Lefebvre and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

He was automatically excommunicated for ordaining men as bishops without Pope John Paul II’s permission.

_________________
TRÁI TIM MẸ SẼ THẮNG.

Vietnamese - Mother's Heart Will Conquer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:54 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Really the OP has nothing to do with what the state of archbishop Lefebvre 's soul was. That's not our business.

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:00 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
lbt wrote:
Yes, Archbishop signed Vatican II documents. You will find signatures of the Council Fathers at the end of each document in Latin:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... /index.htm

Note that there were actually two Lefebvre’s: Cardinal Joseph Lefebvre and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

He was automatically excommunicated for ordaining men as bishops without Pope John Paul II’s permission.


He signed those documents, there is no doubt about that. Later on he harshly criticized Vatican II. Some people will say oh he was pressured into signing those documents, that the traditionalists at the council were given no other option and were persecuted...who knows. Either way, all I was getting at is that Lefebvre was a Catholic, whether his excommunication was valid or not depends on whether you accept that Vatican II as a true council or not. You'd be surprised at how many people I have met in traditionalist churches who truly believe Vatican II was a robber council, a modernist takeover of the church and that they strong armed the traditionalists into going along with the changes. No one thought that the Latin mass would go away during the council, it wasn't too long before it almost died out completely in the 80's and the "Novus Ordo Missae" was the dominant rite.

Where Lefebvre certainly got it wrong was he tried to argue that you can add a condition on Papal infallibility which allowed him to say that Vatican II was a pastoral council, that there is no obligation to accept the changes made by the council since it was pastoral. The problem with that is...Lefebvre ended up using the same argument that Anglicans made in the 1800's against Papal infallibility, but their argument was to avoid the authority of the Papacy altogether. Lefebvre did not reject the papacy, he simply rejected having to follow the 83 code of canon law and Vatican II decrees by misunderstanding the vincentian canon. Cardinal Franzelin explains the vincentian canon better than any other theologian that I have come across. He was like a St. Thomas Aquinas of the 1800's.

Lefebvre wanted to have it both ways, and the 83 code of canon law presented a problem for him along with the Vatican II decrees. How do you recognize the Pope...but then reject his authority if you believe that he is a true Pope and not an Anti-Pope? It doesn't work, as Catholics we must accept the Popes authority if he is a true Pope.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:05 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78189
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Quote:
You'd be surprised
We wouldn't :)

Quote:
whether his excommunication was valid or not depends on whether you accept that Vatican II as a true council or not.
Nope, or at least not exactly. He was excommunicated for consecrating/ordaining bishops without a mandate. One could argue that the "state of emergency" he believed made his actions licit could be held to exist even if Vatican II is valid.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:37 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
You'd be surprised
We wouldn't :)

Quote:
whether his excommunication was valid or not depends on whether you accept that Vatican II as a true council or not.
Nope, or at least not exactly. He was excommunicated for consecrating/ordaining bishops without a mandate. One could argue that the "state of emergency" he believed made his actions licit could be held to exist even if Vatican II is valid.


Good point. And I agree about the consecration of the Bishops without a mandate, that was JP II's reason for excommunicating him.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:36 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
You'd be surprised
We wouldn't :)

Quote:
whether his excommunication was valid or not depends on whether you accept that Vatican II as a true council or not.
Nope, or at least not exactly. He was excommunicated for consecrating/ordaining bishops without a mandate. One could argue that the "state of emergency" he believed made his actions licit could be held to exist even if Vatican II is valid.


Getting back to that. What is the use of such canons when a simple statement of the Holy Father has more weight.

Obviously St JP II had the authority to excommunication Archbishop Lefebvre; but he did not, he claimed Lefebvre excommunicated himself.

I find it hard to understand why the canons go at such length to protect people acting in a subjective state of neccesity if it can not withstand any word against it from the Pope

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:14 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78189
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Quote:
excommunicated himself.

Every time someone uses this phrase, a canonist kills a small puppy. Save the puppies. Don't use the phrase. He incurred a latae sententiae excommunication.

The legislator is the legitimate interpreter of canon law, so St. JP II had the authority to tell +Lefebvre that no state of emergency or necessity existed. +Lefebvre refused to believe legitimate authority. At that point, error no longer becomes innocent or exculpatory. The protection is there for someone who makes a real mistake, not someone who is obstinate. At least, that's my understanding (I am not an expert in canon law).

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:29 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
excommunicated himself.

Every time someone uses this phrase, a canonist kills a small puppy. Save the puppies. Don't use the phrase. He incurred a latae sententiae excommunication.

The legislator is the legitimate interpreter of canon law, so St. JP II had the authority to tell +Lefebvre that no state of emergency or necessity existed. +Lefebvre refused to believe legitimate authority. At that point, error no longer becomes innocent or exculpatory. The protection is there for someone who makes a real mistake, not someone who is obstinate. At least, that's my understanding (I am not an expert in canon law).


So was the excommunication confected at the ordination or when St. JP II mentioned that it was a l.s. excommunication?

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:04 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78189
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Quote:
confected incurred

At the moment +Lefebvre committed the canonical crime, which was at the ordination.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:12 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
confected incurred

At the moment +Lefebvre committed the canonical crime, which was at the ordination.


i agree with Father on this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:28 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
confected incurred

At the moment +Lefebvre committed the canonical crime, which was at the ordination.


:scratch: okay but that just raises more questions.

Okay St JP II had the authority to say if there was or was not a state of neccesity, but +Lefebvre sincerely (it seems) believed that there was a state of neccesity. So before St JP II ruled on the issue would +Lefebvre not be protected because he was in good faith

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:38 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
confected incurred

At the moment +Lefebvre committed the canonical crime, which was at the ordination.


:scratch: okay but that just raises more questions.

Okay St JP II had the authority to say if there was or was not a state of neccesity, but +Lefebvre sincerely (it seems) believed that there was a state of neccesity. So before St JP II ruled on the issue would +Lefebvre not be protected because he was in good faith


If you look at what happened to the latin mass during the 70s and the 80s...it was like they just threw it in the garbage basically. There weren't many parishes even having the latin mass anymore. So Lefebvre felt that in order to keep the traditional Catholic faith going...that he needed bishops for the future. The novus ordo missae became the dominant rite, and I think JP II started to realize eventually just how badly the situation was getting in the late 80's, hence why the FSSP came around. If I understand it all correctly, it's been a while since I read about Lefebvre.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:09 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 7681
Location: India
Religion: Syro Malabar Christian
ForeverFaithful wrote:
[B]efore St JP II ruled on the issue would +Lefebvre not be protected because he was in good faith

JPII instructed +Lefebvre before the Ordinations that he was not to proceed with them, Cardinal Ratzinger acting as emissary.

_________________
Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:52 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
Jack3 wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
[B]efore St JP II ruled on the issue would +Lefebvre not be protected because he was in good faith

JPII instructed +Lefebvre before the Ordinations that he was not to proceed with them, Cardinal Ratzinger acting as emissary.


Archbishop Lefebvre

June 12, 1988

It's over. The talks [with Rome] are over. The more we think about it, the more we realize that their intentions are not good. The proof: look what happened with Dom Augustin and Fr. of Blignieres [The Benedictine monastery of Dom Augustin gradually accepted the new Mass at the end of the 1980s; the Dominican Tertiaries Foundation of Fr. de Blignieres went from sedevacantism to union with Rome, accepting religious liberty. Ndlr]. They want to unite everyone to the council, leaving us only a little bit of Tradition.

Mr. De Saventhem (then president of Una Voce International) believes that there is still a way to get along with Rome.
But this isn't about little things. In Rome they remain what they are. We cannot put ourselves in the hands of these people. We don't want to be swallowed up. It is an illusion of Dom Gérard (at that time, prior of the monastery of Saint Magdalene of Barroux and who chose ralliement with Rome) to think that an agreement would give us an immense apostolate. Yes, but in an equivocal and ambiguous context that will corrupt us.

They tell us: "You will have more vocations if you are with Rome..." But if ever we spoke up against Rome, these vocations would divide and corrupt our seminaries. And the [liberal] bishops would say to them: "Come with us then!" So little by little the amalgamation would occur.

The sisters of Saint-Michel-en-Brenne, the Dominican Sisters of Fanjeaux and Brignoles1, are all against the agreement: "We should not depend on Ratzinger, they say... Imagine if he came to give us conferences! He would divide us!"

What if some of them abandon us? It wouldn't be any more serious than it was in 1977. Fathers Blin, Gottlieb and Cie are now united to Rome and have scattered (Mgr Lefebvre is referring to the priests who left him in 1977. They were recruited by the dioceses and now say the new Mass). A second decision is needed against neo-modernist Rome (after the first, in 1976). What do you want to do? Are things more serious this time? The basic problem remains the same: Rome wants to destroy Tradition (...).

The role of consecrated bishops: ordinations, confirmations and maintaining the faith [underlined in the original notes]. You must protect the flock.

Rome wants to make us change

After June 30th, I will stay here, I will have finished giving the Fraternity the structure it needs. To the pope I say: when Tradition returns to Rome there will be no more problem.

Excommunication? It will be worthless, for they do not seek the good of the Church. Instead, excommunication will be treated as a treasure. They're panicking. They're trying to get me by all means (...) They want to stop me from acting. They'd like to send me to Mother Teresa of Calcutta. But it's not worth receiving them. There's no point endlessly repeating the same things. All we have to do is read the letter sent to us by Fr. C., who corrupted our seminarians and took them from us. He confesses that they are treated [in Rome] as outcasts, that they are forced to give up their cassocks or that they no longer receive them. He found out what this Roman "Mater Ecclesiæ" is like. This is what they want to intend to do with us2. And when this happened, when these seminarians left us, Ratzinger rejoiced.

So why would they keep their word with us today? God protected us by making that agreement fail.

13 June, 1988


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:31 pm 
Offline
Board Administrator
Board Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:44 am
Posts: 19076
Religion: Catholic
Do everyone (including yourself) a favor and understand we are all familiar with the obvious facts of this and other issues. Please use the search function and see what has already been said. But please also refrain from commenting on threads that are years old and long dead. It might also be useful for you to look at the "joined date" of the people you are interacting with. And for most with dates of 2002 add 5 years or so. 2002 is just when we switched over to this format. We welcome you and your enthusiasm but would really appreciate not being approached as if we are neophytes. It is rather off-putting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:45 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Zeno wrote:
Do everyone (including yourself) a favor and understand we are all familiar with the obvious facts of this and other issues. Please use the search function and see what has already been said. But please also refrain from commenting on threads that are years old and long dead. It might also be useful for you to look at the "joined date" of the people you are interacting with. And for most with dates of 2002 add 5 years or so. 2002 is just when we switched over to this format. We welcome you and your enthusiasm but would really appreciate not being approached as if we are neophytes. It is rather off-putting.


Is this directed at me? I would like to apologize if I caused offence

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 3   [ 57 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


Jump to:  
cron