Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 3   [ 57 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:50 pm 
Offline
Board Administrator
Board Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:44 am
Posts: 19175
Religion: Catholic
Not directed at you FF. Directed at the post directly above it. Sorry for confusion.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:21 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
Zeno wrote:
Do everyone (including yourself) a favor and understand we are all familiar with the obvious facts of this and other issues. Please use the search function and see what has already been said. But please also refrain from commenting on threads that are years old and long dead. It might also be useful for you to look at the "joined date" of the people you are interacting with. And for most with dates of 2002 add 5 years or so. 2002 is just when we switched over to this format. We welcome you and your enthusiasm but would really appreciate not being approached as if we are neophytes. It is rather off-putting.


The reason for posting that was simply to show what the Archbishop had been thinking while this was going on. It was not meant to make anyone feel like a neophyte. My apologies.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:36 pm 
Offline
Board Administrator
Board Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:44 am
Posts: 19175
Religion: Catholic
The comment was not limited to this particular instance. Consider it general advice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:57 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76026
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
ForeverFaithful wrote:

Okay St JP II had the authority to say if there was or was not a state of necessity, but +Lefebvre sincerely (it seems) believed that there was a state of necessity. So before St JP II ruled on the issue would +Lefebvre not be protected because he was in good faith



What Lefebrave may or may not have believed is completely irrelevant. What matters are actual objective facts, not subjective perceptions.

By the same reasoning, a Lutheran could well argue that Martin Luther sincerely believed that the Pope was the antichrist and every Christian had a duty to leave the Catholic Church and rebel against papal authority, and therefore, Martin Luther's excommunication was not valid.

If we allow ourselves to be influenced by subjective perceptions, then no excommunication can ever be valid, because every excommunicated person believes that he acted out of necessity.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:55 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81003
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
verumfidei wrote:
The reason for posting that was simply to show what the Archbishop had been thinking while this was going on. It was not meant to make anyone feel like a neophyte. My apologies.

You have stumbled by chance (or providence) into a group of people who, in large part, are sympathetic to where you're coming from. Relax; you are among friends, not among people you need to exhort to agree with you. We might not all go as far as you, but many of us are in the ballpark.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:46 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
Doom wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:

Okay St JP II had the authority to say if there was or was not a state of necessity, but +Lefebvre sincerely (it seems) believed that there was a state of necessity. So before St JP II ruled on the issue would +Lefebvre not be protected because he was in good faith



What Lefebrave may or may not have believed is completely irrelevant. What matters are actual objective facts, not subjective perceptions.

By the same reasoning, a Lutheran could well argue that Martin Luther sincerely believed that the Pope was the antichrist and every Christian had a duty to leave the Catholic Church and rebel against papal authority, and therefore, Martin Luther's excommunication was not valid.

If we allow ourselves to be influenced by subjective perceptions, then no excommunication can ever be valid, because every excommunicated person believes that he acted out of necessity.


Good point


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:46 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:45 pm
Posts: 42
Location: USA
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
verumfidei wrote:
The reason for posting that was simply to show what the Archbishop had been thinking while this was going on. It was not meant to make anyone feel like a neophyte. My apologies.

You have stumbled by chance (or providence) into a group of people who, in large part, are sympathetic to where you're coming from. Relax; you are among friends, not among people you need to exhort to agree with you. We might not all go as far as you, but many of us are in the ballpark.


*Relaxes with some gregorian chant on*


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:29 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39938
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Doom wrote:
What Lefebrave may or may not have believed is completely irrelevant. What matters are actual objective facts, not subjective perceptions.

Actually no, subjective perceptions are very important in this case (my emphases):

Quote:
Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:

...

4/ a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;

We know the act of consecrating a bishop, even without a Papal mandate, is not intrinsically evil; it happened in the past and has even happened in recent times behind the Iron Curtain (for example, Cardinal Husar was consecrated without a Papal mandate by Cardinal Slipyj). That the consecrations might tend to the harm of souls is a totally subjective judgment as well. I'm not saying that the judgment is incorrect - merely pointing out that it is not an objective one - and considering that laws that impose a penalty are supposed to be interpreted narrowly....

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:53 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:44 pm
Posts: 41
Religion: Catholic
Deleted


Last edited by deleted_user on Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:24 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39938
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
The FSSP has never been offered a bishop, thus they are not "waiting" for one.

I personally do not believe that the excommunication of Abp. Lefebvre was valid, but -- that said -- there are reasons beyond "stalling" that the Holy See might have opposed Lefebvre's "terna" of bishops. For example, Bernard Fellay was below the canonical age (he was 29 when he was consecrated a bishop!), and Richard Williamson was a somewhat recent convert from Anglicanism.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:32 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1663
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Peregrinator wrote:
Richard Williamson was a somewhat recent convert from Anglicanism.


Williamson is also a loose cannon. Why did +Lefebvre pick him

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:35 pm 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39938
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
My guess is because Williamson was a loyalist.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:18 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:22 pm
Posts: 1663
Location: Canada
Religion: la foi Catholique
Church Affiliations: K of C 4th Degree
Peregrinator wrote:
My guess is because Williamson was a loyalist.

Loyal to whom?

_________________
In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:19 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:44 pm
Posts: 41
Religion: Catholic
Deleted


Last edited by deleted_user on Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:06 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39938
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
My guess is because Williamson was a loyalist.

Loyal to whom?

Abp. Lefebvre

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:08 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39938
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Christus_vincit wrote:
the reason for the four consecrations was to consecrate a sufficient number of bishops who would be able to continue to ordain priests who would say the traditional mass, uphold traditional Catholic doctrine and morality, etc.

Well four is more than sufficient for that. One or two would have been sufficient.

Quote:
Did you mean to say he was a monarchist?

Nope. I mean to say that he was loyal to Abp. Lefebvre.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Was Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:49 pm 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:44 pm
Posts: 41
Religion: Catholic
Deleted


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 3   [ 57 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


Jump to: