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 Post subject: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:38 pm 
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So I was thinking about applying to Amazon Flex. Basically you deliver boxes shipped to your local area. At the same time, I know that some of the material they sell, however small the percentage is, of Amazon, is bad.

Would I be sinning if I took the job and were delivering things which are potentially bad, but without knowledge of what is in the boxes? Does this fall under the principle of double effect or something like that (my intention is to have a consistent job, which I don't have right now - I am basically doing side jobs here and there right now, while trying to find something consistent), or remote material cooperation where the participation is so remote, involuntary, unknown that there is no sin? I am not a moral theologian, so I don't know.

I honestly would not "feel" right about this kind of job; but I want to be objective.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:42 pm 
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There may be particular circumstances in which it is licit to render material cooperation in the sin of another in order to achieve a necessary good or avoid a great harm. Such cooperation rests on the fact that "charity, by which we are obliged to avoid it (the other person's sin), does not oblige if there is great difficulty." Obviously if the good effects can be obtained in other ways, cooperation in evil is not licit. The assessment of whether or not it is possible to use other means in lieu of cooperation in evil does not bear on the physical possibility of alternate means but on the moral possibility in the particular case (even if it entails extra effort, less profit or the like).

Even if cooperation is the only possible means to obtain a given good, it does not follow that it is necessarily licit to do so. The moral judgment has to be made in each case in the light of all of the conditions required for the indirect voluntary (double effect).

In your case there is no way to know what is in parcels and therefore you are not cooperating with evil.

It is the same with someone who facilitates the internet (say connecting a cable or hosting a server) - a small group of people may use it for evil purposes but their participation is so remote, involuntary or unknown that there is no sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:13 pm 
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Dee wrote:
So I was thinking about applying to Amazon Flex. Basically, you deliver boxes shipped to your local area. At the same time, I know that some of the material they sell, however small the percentage is, of Amazon, is bad.

Would I be sinning if I took the job and were delivering things which are potentially bad, but without knowledge of what is in the boxes? Does this fall under the principle of double effect or something like that (my intention is to have a consistent job, which I don't have right now - I am basically doing side jobs here and there right now, while trying to find something consistent), or remote material cooperation where the participation is so remote, involuntary, unknown that there is no sin? I am not a moral theologian, so I don't know.

I honestly would not "feel" right about this kind of job, but I want to be objective.


At worst, it would be 'remote material cooperation', which is not a sin (the reason why it isn't a sin is because avoiding all remote material cooperation with sin is impossible) and arguably it isn't even that.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:47 pm 
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Theology aside. It is not necessarily a money making opportunity…

The Atlantic.com, TECHNOLOGY. I Delivered Packages for Amazon and It Was a Nightmare: Amazon Flex allows drivers to get paid to deliver packages from their own vehicles. But is it a good deal for workers? by ALANA SEMUELS, JUN 25, 2018, HERE.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:24 am 
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Standard overeducated, self-important, fragile whiner.

I signed up for a job, then learned that it was difficult, was paid less than I thought (because I didn't think), and that's just not right.

I, and many others I've known, would have loved to have worked under the circumstances that the author did. Because some of the jobs we had were actually hard -- like working on a road crew in Houston in the summer. We would have figured it out. Having said that, I wouldn't work for Amazon if I had no knowledge of the specifics of the job. Or the specifics of any job. For example, the risk-reward ratio of the probability of having to pay for an illegal parking ticket and/or paying for legal parking versus $18 an hour would prevent me from accepting the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:27 am 
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Dee wrote:
... without knowledge of what is in the boxes ...


It is unreasonable to require perfect knowledge in making any decision. It is also probable that any job facilitates, at least in some minute fashion under certain unusual circumstances, an evil. If purity in the workplace is a deciding criterion, then nobody would work anywhere, ever.

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At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:36 am 
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Highlander wrote:
Standard overeducated, self-important, fragile whiner.

Or one could assume that the author is trying to give the reader "knowledge of the specifics of the job... For example, the risk-reward ratio..."

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Formerly: Greg.

- I try to have a little something for everybody in my posts. If you notice a spelling, grammar, or punctuation error... well... I put that in for you.

- I remember a lot of things. (Some of which actually happened.)

- Even the best of men may be born in times unsuited to their virtues.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:40 am 
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One could assume that. One could also, from the tone, assume otherwise. Or one could assume both.

I would have been more impressed has the author said, "The job required an effort on my part that I was not willing to give -- for various reasons. So I quit."

As stated, I wouldn't deliver for Flex. Especially in a major urban area. But I don't see if as a capitalist plot against the working, or not willing to work, man.

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Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:39 am 
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The remote participation answer is the correct one. If it weren't, every post office, UPS, Fedex, DHL, etc. employee would have to quit. So would every bus driver whose route ran near an abortion clinic. There are things that are generally good but subject to occasional abuse. As long as a person does not wish to encourage the abuse, and if the abuse is small in proportion to the good being done, and on the condition that his participation is remote, he can take the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:45 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The remote participation answer is the correct one.


In other words, you meant to say 'I agree with Doom' :cloud9:


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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:39 pm 
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If I had meant that, I would have said it. So I disagree with you :cloud9:

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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Standard overeducated, self-important, fragile whiner.

I signed up for a job, then learned that it was difficult, was paid less than I thought (because I didn't think), and that's just not right.

I, and many others I've known, would have loved to have worked under the circumstances that the author did. Because some of the jobs we had were actually hard -- like working on a road crew in Houston in the summer. We would have figured it out. Having said that, I wouldn't work for Amazon if I had no knowledge of the specifics of the job. Or the specifics of any job. For example, the risk-reward ratio of the probability of having to pay for an illegal parking ticket and/or paying for legal parking versus $18 an hour would prevent me from accepting the job.


you have my most sincere condolences... and thanks... but there are still hundreds , if not thousands, of potholes decorating our roadways :verymad:

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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Wasn't me. A friend in college. He lasted two weeks. Lost about 20 pounds. We live in a hot, very dry climate; Houston isn't.

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Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:48 pm 
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Our Lady's Gladiator
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no kidding ... i grew up in west texas... muy caliente but no humidity... a friend of mine came to visit me the summer after we moved here and when he deplaned on to the tarmac (yeah, it was that long ago) , he said it was like he had to swim to move the humidity was so bad

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 Post subject: Re: Question about potential job circumstances
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:04 am 
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Highlander wrote:
... I would have been more impressed has the author said, "The job required an effort on my part that I was not willing to give -- for various reasons. So I quit."... But I don't see if as a capitalist plot against the working, or not willing to work, man.

I read about a third of the article in detail and scanned over the rest. Perhaps her anti-capitalist, whiner perspective would have been clearer had I read the article word-for-word.

_________________
Formerly: Greg.

- I try to have a little something for everybody in my posts. If you notice a spelling, grammar, or punctuation error... well... I put that in for you.

- I remember a lot of things. (Some of which actually happened.)

- Even the best of men may be born in times unsuited to their virtues.


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