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 Post subject: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Ok, I know that people on this forum much wiser than I have issues with Bp. Robert Barron, especially in his beliefs regarding hell. My question really isn’t about what is or isn’t compatible with the CCC and/or the magisterium re: Bp. Barron’s beliefs. At least, I don’t think it is.

For context, I’m including a link to the excerpt from Bp. Barron’s Book Catholicism from which my question originates, specifically from the final paragraph. Long story short, if I understand correctly what I read, Bp. Barron acknowledges that hell does indeed exist, and the Catholic Church does not state definitively that any particular individual is known to be there (I know that much is correct). He then goes on to say that, were there (for lack of a better word) a “formula” for ensuring condemnation to hell, it would mean that the power of sin is greater than God’s mercy and grace (which we know to be false). Am I correct in my understanding of the passage so far, and if there is a controversy with the assertions up to now, could someone please explain?

Now for the part I’d like to discuss. Bp. Barron follows by saying this:
Quote:
As C.S. Lewis put it so memorably: the door that closes one into Hell (if there is anyone there) is locked from the inside not from the outside.


To the best of anyone’s understanding, is this a valid analogy? It seems to meet all the requirements in that God’s saving grace and mercy are available to a gift paid by Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, it has redemptive power over all sin, but it must be freely accepted. To reject God’s offer of redemptive grace is to close the door to hell behind oneself, at some point (death, no?), that door is locked by the unrepentant, never to be unlocked.

Did I get the analogy right, and if so, is it a valid analogy? Thanks for your help.

ETA the link I promised and subsequently forgot: https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/ar ... ctive/405/

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:48 pm 
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He's right that that belief can be ascribed to C. S. Lewis.

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:17 pm 
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We do know that there are people in hell--namely, the Devil and his angels.

We also know that there is at least one "formula" for condemnation to hell--namely, dying with unrepented mortal sin on your soul. I don't know precisely what he's getting at when he talks about the "formula," and didn't notice your source for that thought in the link, but if he's denying what I just mentioned, I'd say he's off the reservation.

The link also includes standard-issue modernist Catholic mockery of the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, naturally ripped out of context and hence distorted. That's just the balthasarian thing. They're contractually required to do that kind of thing. I think it shows what we need to know about their relation to the traditional teaching of the Church, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:54 pm 
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In all fairness, gherkin, “formula” was my word, not Bp. Barron’s. In a struggle to find the right word, it appears I chose the wrong one. My apologies. :oops:

But the rest of your pickly post did pretty much provide the information I was seeking, as well as valuable insights as to the error that pervades this line of thinking. You have succeeded in evading a ban, at least for today. :wink:

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:02 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
We do know that there are people in hell--namely, the Devil and his angels.

We also know that there is at least one "formula" for condemnation to hell--namely, dying with unrepented mortal sin on your soul. I don't know precisely what he's getting at when he talks about the "formula," and didn't notice your source for that thought in the link, but if he's denying what I just mentioned, I'd say he's off the reservation.

The link also includes standard-issue modernist Catholic mockery of the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, naturally ripped out of context and hence distorted. That's just the balthasarian thing. They're contractually required to do that kind of thing. I think it shows what we need to know about their relation to the traditional teaching of the Church, though.



when i think "people" , i think flesh and blood... if true, are the devil and his angels "people" :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Ok, I know that people on this forum much wiser than I have issues with Bp. Robert Barron, especially in his beliefs regarding hell. My question really isn’t about what is or isn’t compatible with the CCC and/or the magisterium re Bp. Barron’s beliefs. At least, I don’t think it is.

For context, I’m including a link to the excerpt from Bp. Barron’s Book Catholicism from which my question originates, specifically from the final paragraph. Long story short, if I understand correctly what I read, Bp. Barron acknowledges that hell does indeed exist, and the Catholic Church does not state definitively that any particular individual is known to be there (I know that much is correct).


Except that isn't correct, because we know for a certainty that Judas Iscariot is there, Our Lord specifically and directly said so, there is no other way to interpret his curse of Judas that 'it would be better for him if he had not been born' except to interpret it categorically as a statement that Judas is in hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:19 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
when i think "people" , i think flesh and blood... if true, are the devil and his angels "people" :scratch:

Sure

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Persons are any incommunicable hypostases of an intellectual essence.

It is a name of dignity in fact more properly said of angels. So if the higher nature can go to hell...

But what makes this error more egregious is not the ignoring of scripture that plainly has humans lost (after all Bishop Barron rejects Catholic tradition on how to read scripture, especially history... He has an almost Marcionist view of the OT)

No. It is the pathological need never to speak of the damned without the immediate addition of parenthetical doubt. The damned (if there are any) absolutely neuters the force of any statement following.

Let me be frank, his strong point is his weakest. He is acutely aware of what offends and what attracts modern ears. But this leads him to downplay or outright deny unsettling truths. See his strained attempt to explain violence in the OT.

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Ok, I know that people on this forum much wiser than I have issues with Bp. Robert Barron, especially in his beliefs regarding hell. My question really isn’t about what is or isn’t compatible with the CCC and/or the magisterium re Bp. Barron’s beliefs. At least, I don’t think it is.

For context, I’m including a link to the excerpt from Bp. Barron’s Book Catholicism from which my question originates, specifically from the final paragraph. Long story short, if I understand correctly what I read, Bp. Barron acknowledges that hell does indeed exist, and the Catholic Church does not state definitively that any particular individual is known to be there (I know that much is correct).


Except that isn't correct, because we know for a certainty that Judas Iscariot is there, Our Lord specifically and directly said so, there is no other way to interpret his curse of Judas that 'it would be better for him if he had not been born' except to interpret it categorically as a statement that Judas is in hell.

St. John Paul II thought otherwise, though I think he was wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:55 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Let me be frank, his strong point is his weakest.

This is pretty much a general rule for anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:06 pm 
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Now that I'm on a computer rather than a phone:

Lewis's statement, however unhappily phrased it may be, is correct in that there is nothing in Heaven that the damned are capable of enjoying.

Here's how Pohle/Preuss put it:

Quote:
When the damned enter Hell, where grace ceases and conversion becomes impossible, they are smitten with great confusion of spirit and a corresponding sentiment of impenitence. Being permanently deprived of grace makes them enemies of God. It is not necessary to conceive this state as a sort of confirmed “Satanism.” No doubt there are degrees of malice and impenitence in Hell. But all the damned hate God more or less because He is no longer their friend. Herein lies the dreadfulness of eternal punishment. The natural will, being a gift of God, remains good; but it no longer wills that which is good. It wills the bad, or if it wills the good, wills it with a wrong intention. St. Thomas explains the reason as follows: “The damned are absolutely turned away from the final end of the rightly directed will. The will cannot be good except it be ordered to that end, so that, even if [the damned] willed something good, they would not will it in the right way, i.e. so that their will might be called good.”

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
He's right that that belief can be ascribed to C. S. Lewis.


PROBLEM OF PAIN, 1st American ed., chap. 8, p. 115.

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:12 pm 
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GKC wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
He's right that that belief can be ascribed to C. S. Lewis.


PROBLEM OF PAIN, 1st American ed., chap. 8, p. 115.

I just finished reading that again for the umpteenth time a couple of nights ago. I had just completed Miracles, so I guess I'm on a bit of a Lewis run (I finished The Abolition of Man for the first time, actually, a few months back). After I finish Wright's Evil and the Justice of God, I want to go through Lewis' Grief Observed again.

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:36 am 
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theJack wrote:
GKC wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
He's right that that belief can be ascribed to C. S. Lewis.


PROBLEM OF PAIN, 1st American ed., chap. 8, p. 115.


I just finished reading that again for the umpteenth time a couple of nights ago. I had just completed Miracles, so I guess I'm on a bit of a Lewis run (I finished The Abolition of Man for the first time, actually, a few months back). After I finish Wright's Evil and the Justice of God, I want to go through Lewis' Grief Observed again.


Keep it up. I tend to let too much time go between reading Lewis. OTOH, my wife is rereading the Space Trilogy, and greatly enjoying it. I read McGrath's bio a couple of months ago, and started his INTELLECTUAL WORLD OF C.S. LEWIS and Reppert's C.S. LEWIS'S DANGEROUS IDEA, but got distracted by shiny things.

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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:00 pm 
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8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Bp. Barron and The Door to Hell
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:01 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
8-)


That was one of them.

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