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 Post subject: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
FWIW, our diocesan exorcist, who wears a cassock everywhere and strongly prefers the Extraordinary Form, says he doesn't buy the idea that holy water blessed by the new blessing is less efficacious than the old.



I have heard of exorcists disagreeing before, so it’s no surprise. But what is surprising that a prayer that embeds Holy water with specific properties of exorcism is being considered no better than Holy water without it.

Does that specific prayer do nothing? It adds nothing? Again, in the world of spiritual warfare, exorcism and their specific formulas are there for a reason. Even within a solemn exorcism, certain prayer formulas do different things – it’s not like you can pray whatever and it all has the same affect.


It may be just as efficacious with everything else, but not spiritual warfare.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:54 am 
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Alexandros wrote:

The source is Fr. Rippenger, who is an exorcist. Fr. Amorth also recounts that he used exorcised holy water, not just holy water, when he was combatting the demonic.



AFIK Fr Rippenger is a sort of self-appointed exorcist. He founded a group called The Dolorans. They do not appear as an official order of their Arch Diocese, https://archden.org/religious_order/ Heck, I cannot even find his name on the Archdiocese website anywhere. Funny that his website is in Greely, CO. Half of that town is related to me :)

Having known holy priests who are official exorcists, they don't tend to go around TELLING people that they are an exorcist. In fact, we who work for the parish are not supposed to give his name out to people, but, rather have our priest first review any claims. Pastor then decides if the Diocese needs to get involved.

The sort of DIY "spiritual warfare/deliverance" encouraged by the Fr Rippenger fans is tooooo much like the Pentecostalism that I experienced as a kid. No, I'm going to stick with the official men.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:46 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
AFIK Fr Rippenger is a sort of self-appointed exorcist. He founded a group called The Dolorans. They do not appear as an official order of their Arch Diocese, https://archden.org/religious_order/ Heck, I cannot even find his name on the Archdiocese website anywhere. Funny that his website is in Greely, CO. Half of that town is related to me :)

Having known holy priests who are official exorcists, they don't tend to go around TELLING people that they are an exorcist. In fact, we who work for the parish are not supposed to give his name out to people, but, rather have our priest first review any claims. Pastor then decides if the Diocese needs to get involved.

The sort of DIY "spiritual warfare/deliverance" encouraged by the Fr Rippenger fans is tooooo much like the Pentecostalism that I experienced as a kid. No, I'm going to stick with the official men.


I agree. It's sounds a bit sketchy.

Authentic Catholicism promotes the Sacraments; mostly frequent and solemn use of the Sacrament of Penance and the Holy Eucharist. They are the most powerful Spiritual weapons against the Evil one we ordinary Catholics need. We are not left orphans.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:56 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
AFIK Fr Rippenger is a sort of self-appointed exorcist. He founded a group called The Dolorans. They do not appear as an official order of their Arch Diocese, https://archden.org/religious_order/ Heck, I cannot even find his name on the Archdiocese website anywhere. Funny that his website is in Greely, CO. Half of that town is related to me :)

I don't know of any archdiocesan web sites that put the name(s) of their exorcist(s) on their web sites, so that he's not listed on the archdiocesan web site as an exorcist is really no big deal.

But he is listed on the web site in the clergy directory:
https://archden.org/clergy/page/22/
https://archden.org/clergy/rev-chad-ripperger/

I imagine his "order" probably has the status of "private association of the faithful" at the moment - if any status at all.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:00 pm 
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You can't be a self-appointed exorcist within the Catholic structure. Major exorcisms can't be performed without the permission of the Ordinary. He may grant that permission in general to certain priests so that they don't have to check every time, but no permission = no authority to perform an exorcism.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:41 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Alexandros wrote:

The source is Fr. Rippenger, who is an exorcist. Fr. Amorth also recounts that he used exorcised holy water, not just holy water, when he was combatting the demonic.



AFIK Fr Rippenger is a sort of self-appointed exorcist. He founded a group called The Dolorans. They do not appear as an official order of their Arch Diocese, https://archden.org/religious_order/ Heck, I cannot even find his name on the Archdiocese website anywhere. Funny that his website is in Greely, CO. Half of that town is related to me :)

Having known holy priests who are official exorcists, they don't tend to go around TELLING people that they are an exorcist. In fact, we who work for the parish are not supposed to give his name out to people, but, rather have our priest first review any claims. Pastor then decides if the Diocese needs to get involved.

The sort of DIY "spiritual warfare/deliverance" encouraged by the Fr Rippenger fans is tooooo much like the Pentecostalism that I experienced as a kid. No, I'm going to stick with the official men.



Regardless of what Fr. Ripperger says and does, there is still an objective superiority to the old prayers. This is a fact which you have failed to address so far.


I ask you again:


Would you rather take standard new rite blessed Holy water, or one with the exorcism prayer attached to it? Which one would be better suited for spiritual warfare?


I can name other priests I know who agree with what I am saying, but no one here would care. Conversely, other priests will disagree. Get over focusing on Fr. Ripperger for a few seconds and prove to me that having a prayer as shown in traditional rite has no further effect on the holy water than the new rite.

MichaelD14 wrote:
Authentic Catholicism promotes the Sacraments; mostly frequent and solemn use of the Sacrament of Penance and the Holy Eucharist. They are the most powerful Spiritual weapons against the Evil one we ordinary Catholics need. We are not left orphans.



Annnnd... that's exactly what Fr. Ripperger says - Confession and Eucharist are the most effective means.

Also, maybe you can answer the question above too.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
AFIK Fr Rippenger is a sort of self-appointed exorcist. He founded a group called The Dolorans. They do not appear as an official order of their Arch Diocese, https://archden.org/religious_order/ Heck, I cannot even find his name on the Archdiocese website anywhere. Funny that his website is in Greely, CO. Half of that town is related to me :)

I don't know of any archdiocesan web sites that put the name(s) of their exorcist(s) on their web sites, so that he's not listed on the archdiocesan web site as an exorcist is really no big deal.

But he is listed on the web site in the clergy directory:
https://archden.org/clergy/page/22/
https://archden.org/clergy/rev-chad-ripperger/

I imagine his "order" probably has the status of "private association of the faithful" at the moment - if any status at all.


Agree, the Diocese would never list the names of those in this ministry (I thought I said that even we who know the names are not permitted to tell it to the general public or to random phone calls that come on a daily basis).

The faithful of Denver would, I assume, check with their pastor before calling on Fr Rippenger. The rest of us, well, we would do well to seek the guidance of our own priests.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Quote:
Prove to me that having a prayer as shown in traditional rite has no further effect on the holy water than the new rite.
Prove to me that it does.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:47 pm 
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I would stick with this

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
FWIW, our diocesan exorcist, who wears a cassock everywhere and strongly prefers the Extraordinary Form, says he doesn't buy the idea that holy water blessed by the new blessing is less efficacious than the old.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
Prove to me that having a prayer as shown in traditional rite has no further effect on the holy water than the new rite.
Prove to me that it does.



A rudimentary prayer of exorcism is to command a spirit in the name of God to leave. Right? Am I wrong? The new rite does not have this and the old rite does. Hence, the old rite prayers are more effective in spiritual warfare.

It's like asking me to prove that a watered-down version of the Hail Mary is just as good as the traditional one. It's not, because words are missing and words convey meaning. Am I seriously going to believe that not commanding evil spirits in the name of God to leave is just as good as when you do? Bizarre.

Even if this was not proof for you, then it is still better to err on the safe side and use the traditional prayers.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
The source is Fr. Rippenger, who is an exorcist. Fr. Amorth also recounts that he used exorcised holy water, not just holy water, when he was combatting the demonic.


AFIK Fr Rippenger is a sort of self-appointed exorcist. He founded a group called The Dolorans. They do not appear as an official order of their Arch Diocese, https://archden.org/religious_order/ Heck, I cannot even find his name on the Archdiocese website anywhere. Funny that his website is in Greely, CO. Half of that town is related to me :)

Having known holy priests who are official exorcists, they don't tend to go around TELLING people that they are an exorcist. In fact, we who work for the parish are not supposed to give his name out to people, but, rather have our priest first review any claims. Pastor then decides if the Diocese needs to get involved.

The sort of DIY "spiritual warfare/deliverance" encouraged by the Fr Rippenger fans is tooooo much like the Pentecostalism that I experienced as a kid. No, I'm going to stick with the official men.



Regardless of what Fr. Ripperger says and does, there is still an objective superiority to the old prayers. This is a fact which you have failed to address so far.


I ask you again:


Would you rather take standard new rite blessed Holy water, or one with the exorcism prayer attached to it? Which one would be better suited for spiritual warfare?


I can name other priests I know who agree with what I am saying, but no one here would care. Conversely, other priests will disagree. Get over focusing on Fr. Ripperger for a few seconds and prove to me that having a prayer as shown in traditional rite has no further effect on the holy water than the new rite.

MichaelD14 wrote:
Authentic Catholicism promotes the Sacraments; mostly frequent and solemn use of the Sacrament of Penance and the Holy Eucharist. They are the most powerful Spiritual weapons against the Evil one we ordinary Catholics need. We are not left orphans.



Annnnd... that's exactly what Fr. Ripperger says - Confession and Eucharist are the most effective means.

Also, maybe you can answer the question above too.


If the question is the older Rite compared to the current Rite...I'll put faith the newer rite offers the same efficacy. The Holy Spirit isn't guiding the Church in the wrong direction.

As for SACRAMENTALS - as Holy Water, they predispose us to Grace - they do not confer Grace. Thus, putting too much emphasis on them would seem boarding on superstition, IMO.

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Last edited by MichaelD14 on Wed May 09, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Regardless of what Fr. Ripperger says and does, there is still an objective superiority to the old prayers. This is a fact which you have failed to address so far.

This is just begging the question.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Every time I split a topic, it doesn't work well.... :(


Peregrinator wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Regardless of what Fr. Ripperger says and does, there is still an objective superiority to the old prayers. This is a fact which you have failed to address so far.

This is just begging the question.


What do you mean?

What is a prayer of exorcism?

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:03 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
If the question is the older Rite compared to the current Rite...I'll put faith the newer rite offers the same efficacy. The Holy Spirit isn't guiding the Church in the wrong direction.


The Holy Spirit does not guarantee every single decision by the Church is the right one.


Quote:
As for SACRAMENTALS - as Holy Water, they predispose us to Grace - they do not confer Grace. Thus, putting too much emphasis on them would seem boarding on superstition, IMO.


You miss the point. A prayer does something. Different worded prayers are supposed to do different things. Much like sacraments: prayers of consecration are different than the words of absolution. The new rite lacks prayers of exorcism. Therefore, it does not have the properties of exorcism and is less potent against the enemy.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:14 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
Quote:
As for SACRAMENTALS - as Holy Water, they predispose us to Grace - they do not confer Grace. Thus, putting too much emphasis on them would seem boarding on superstition, IMO.


Alexandros wrote:
You miss the point. A prayer does something. Different worded prayers are supposed to do different things. Much like sacraments: prayers of consecration are different than the words of absolution. The new rite lacks prayers of exorcism. Therefore, it does not have the properties of exorcism and is less potent against the enemy.


I did not miss the point you were making.

Frankly, what you are exposing is a lack of faith, or TRUST in God.

I'm sure your belief is strong but your faith?

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:32 pm 
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So far, nobody has addressed Alexandros's point that words have meaning. I think that may be because it is so obviously correct that nobody would try to attack it. But then, its correctness does appear to have some important consequences. None of which have anything to do with his faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:38 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
So far, nobody has addressed Alexandros's point that words have meaning. I think that may be because it is so obviously correct that nobody would try to attack it. But then, its correctness does appear to have some important consequences. None of which have anything to do with his faith.



Is this an episode of Charmed where the witch needs the correct words from the book or the Catholic Faith?

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Words do indeed mean something, but there's not a whole lot of theology behind sacramentals--not that they're not efficacious, but that, unlike with the sacraments, theologians haven't explored a lot of these questions.

Is a rosary blessed by a saint somehow more powerful than one blessed by a garden-variety priest, and is one blessed by a priest who is more-or-less holy somehow more powerful than one blessed by a priest living a hidden double life? How about holy water blessed by one of the three? How about holy water blessed by the secret-life priest using the old formula vs. holy water blessed by a saint-in-the-making with the new formula?

There really aren't firm answers to those and similar questions. Alexandros's opinions are not outside the realm of possibility, but they are also not self-evidently true.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:43 pm 
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In Catholic rites form and matter have deep meaning. Yet, they don't suddenly depart from being licit when they change. Tradition is distorted and bastardized often by paranoia.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:45 pm 
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I more-or-less disagree with Alexandros. I am not sure it is necessary to disagree with him so urgently.

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