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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Ad-libbed prayers work.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:22 am 
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I can see it now. Some demon is angrily packing his bags, getting ready to be cast out, hoping to find a pig (or a cat if . . . hello, Denzel) to hop into, when suddenly, a huge smile crosses its face. The exorcist pronounced a word wrong! The specific word was said in the wrong way. IT DOESN'T COUNT! The water isn't holy enough, the prayer not powerful enough. Somewhere (Everywhere! Everywhen!!) God is throwing up His hands yelling at the screen the way I did when the Bulldogs lost it against Alabama in the final seconds of the SEC championship game just a couple of yards from the end zone. The father was SOOOOOOOOOOOO close. But alas, he uttered the wrong word and just the wrong time.

But it's okay. We'll get 'em next year.

------------------------

So yeah, this is why I don't contribute to these threads. :mrgreen: :roll: :nooo: :whoops

and yet...here you are !!! :mrgreen: :roll: :nooo: :whoops

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:36 am 
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Hint: a post from the right poster (with bonus points for being posted in the right color) would definitely have an effect.

But that would come entirely too close to an entirely too veiled legitimate point about authority being the issue and not, say, the color of the text tap the water came from. [*add emojis as appropriate here . . . maybe this one: :twisted: *] ;)

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Last edited by theJack on Mon May 14, 2018 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:38 am 
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I almost understood that post :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:42 am 
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As I said, that's why I don't contribute to these threads. :(

I will offer, as a complete aside, I live with this sort of cognitive dissonance with respect to Catholicism. I am aware that for any outsider of any religion/faith tradition that there are aspects of that tradition that will forever just seem absurd. I am equally aware of my longstanding appreciation for and downright admiration for Catholicism, in particular, its philosophical tradition. And yet I'm equally aware of some of those aspects of your tradition that just strike me forever as absurd, and this is one of them. Debates about which words to use or if those words have to be used or whatever . . . I completely understand on a purely intellectual level how that could be meaningful granting certain premises, but I also can't help (from my own vantage) feeling like Jesus is doing a giant face palm and muttering to Himself something about the Pharisees.

Anyway, I'll fade back into obscurity on this now. My own worthless opinion is that the entire issue is summed up in the authority of the exorcist and nothing else (which, of course, is nothing more or less than the reference to Christ's own authority), but okay then. :wave

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Since I am thoroughly unpersuaded by the varieties of Holy Water argument, I don't know what else to tell you.


Just think about two questions:
Variations of blessed sacramental medals exist, but not sacramental holy water?
The existence of prayers of exorcism vs. non-existence prayers of exorcism makes no difference?

This is where I am; since variations of sacramental medals exist and prayers of exorcism are necessary in an exorcism, then logically traditional holy water is a superior variation of this sacramental.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:45 pm 
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But there are varieties of medals. Water is water.

IOW, we don't talk about a generic sacramental of "medal." There is the sacramental of the St. Benedict medal, and the sacramental of the Miraculous Medal, etc. Likewise with scapulars. And with all of these, there is a specific difference that distinguishes each of them from other sacramentals of the same genus. There is no distinguishing difference for water.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:58 pm 
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theJack wrote:
And yet I'm equally aware of some of those aspects of your tradition that just strike me forever as absurd, and this is one of them. Debates about which words to use or if those words have to be used or whatever . . . I completely understand on a purely intellectual level how that could be meaningful granting certain premises, but I also can't help (from my own vantage) feeling like Jesus is doing a giant face palm and muttering to Himself something about the Pharisees.



I can understand the perception of absurdity. There is usually a bare minimum of intention involved with formula in other Christians rites such as baptism or even repentance in general. The necessary words alone are not enough, the arguments in this thread presume everything else is already in place for an efficacious sacramental.


With regards to exorcism, there is not a verbatim set of words that are necessary, but there is necessary formula. This is attested to by exorcists and Holy Scripture – the bare minimum must be asking God to remove an evil entity– more specifically. it usually involves commanding in the name of God for a demon to leave. This is essentially what it has always been in Scripture and in Church history. For some things, there does seem to be necessity for a bare minimum formula, but words alone are not enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
theJack wrote:
And yet I'm equally aware of some of those aspects of your tradition that just strike me forever as absurd, and this is one of them. Debates about which words to use or if those words have to be used or whatever . . . I completely understand on a purely intellectual level how that could be meaningful granting certain premises, but I also can't help (from my own vantage) feeling like Jesus is doing a giant face palm and muttering to Himself something about the Pharisees.



I can understand the perception of absurdity. There is usually a bare minimum of intention involved with formula in other Christians rites such as baptism or even repentance in general. The necessary words alone are not enough, the arguments in this thread presume everything else is already in place for an efficacious sacramental.


With regards to exorcism, there is not a verbatim set of words that are necessary, but there is necessary formula. This is attested to by exorcists and Holy Scripture – the bare minimum must be asking God to remove an evil entity– more specifically. it usually involves commanding in the name of God for a demon to leave. This is essentially what it has always been in Scripture and in Church history. For some things, there does seem to be necessity for a bare minimum formula, but words alone are not enough.



In Acts 19:13-16; the most vital detail is the demon(s) recognize the proper authority and rejected others without such authority. As Catholics, we know that authority stems from the local ordinary. He approves the exorcist and thus the forthcoming prayers and ritual.

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Last edited by MichaelD14 on Mon May 14, 2018 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
And with all of these, there is a specific difference that distinguishes each of them from other sacramentals of the same genus.


What are the specific differences that distinguish them from each other?

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:02 pm 
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What's on the medal, or the color of the scapular.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
What's on the medal, or the color of the scapular.


So, what is on the St. Benedict Medal (St. Benedict himself and the inscriptions) makes it preferable for spiritual warfare?

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Not my point. My point is that medals have different effects because they are demonstrably different from each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
And with all of these, there is a specific difference that distinguishes each of them from other sacramentals of the same genus.


Alexandros wrote:
What are the specific differences that distinguish them from each other?


Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
What's on the medal, or the color of the scapular.


Alexandros wrote:
So, what is on the St. Benedict Medal (St. Benedict himself and the inscriptions) makes it preferable for spiritual warfare?


Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Not my point. My point is that medals have different effects because they are demonstrably different from each other.


I don’t know what you are talking about. It’s about what’s on the medal or the color, but with St. Benedict’s medal it’s not what’s about on the medal??

You just defined "demonstrably different" as "what is on the medal." Then I ask about what is on the St, Benedict medal, and you say that's not the point?

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:00 pm 
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Again, we seem to be talking past each other. For the point I am trying to make, it is not relevant what in particular is on the medals. What is relevant is that there are physical attributes by which one medal can be distinguished from another. A St. Benedict medal is made with the symbols pertinent to it--no matter what they are. A medal without those symbols is not a St. Benedict medal. It might be something else--a Miraculous medal, if it has the pertinent symbols, or a St. Christopher medal, if it has the symbols pertinent to that, etc.

Water does not have anything to distinguish one putative kind of Holy Water from another kind.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Again, we seem to be talking past each other. For the point I am trying to make, it is not relevant what in particular is on the medals. What is relevant is that there are physical attributes by which one medal can be distinguished from another. A St. Benedict medal is made with the symbols pertinent to it--no matter what they are. A medal without those symbols is not a St. Benedict medal. It might be something else--a Miraculous medal, if it has the pertinent symbols, or a St. Christopher medal, if it has the symbols pertinent to that, etc.

Water does not have anything to distinguish one putative kind of Holy Water from another kind.


But exorcism itself is a sacramental. What are physical attributes of an exorcism that makes it a distinguishable sacramental?

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:13 am 
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What if - now I'm just going out on a limb here - any exorcism of the water is implicit in the constitutive blessing?

I don't think water over which one says only the prayers of exorcism, but doesn't actually bless, is efficacious in any way as far as spiritual warfare is concerned. In other words the exoricism doesn't transfer from the water to another object.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:19 am 
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The word "sacramental" refers both to physical objects and to certain rites (e.g., funerals, exorcisms). Not everything that can be said about one applies to the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The word "sacramental" refers both to physical objects and to certain rites (e.g., funerals, exorcisms). Not everything that can be said about one applies to the other.


I agree, but what I was trying to get at was this: Exorcism is a sacramental, and how that occurs is through the ritual/rite.

The physical form of a medal is required for the sacramental.
The rite of exorcism is required for the sacramental.

If you remove the physical form/attributes of the medal, it is not a sacramental. If you remove the rite of exorcism, then there is no sacramental of exorcism.

Hence, new rite holy water lacks the benefits of the exorcism sacramental because the ritual does not exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
What if - now I'm just going out on a limb here - any exorcism of the water is implicit in the constitutive blessing?


I was thinking about this too, but what I cannot get around is that to have a sacramental, there are necessary prerequisites as already admitted in this thread: e.g. medals need the physical attributes, and exorcism needs the ritual. Can a sacramental exist through implicitness? Solemn exorcism cannot work via implicitness, it seems, and I don’t think any other sacramental works this way... hmmm...

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I don't think water over which one says only the prayers of exorcism, but doesn't actually bless, is efficacious in any way as far as spiritual warfare is concerned. In other words the exoricism doesn't transfer from the water to another object.


I also thought about this one – and I am not sure. They are both classified as their own sacramentals. Does exorcism need the blessing, but the blessing does not need the exorcism? Another hmmmm...

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