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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:58 pm 
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So as a complete outsider reading this with something of a detached interest, I'd just like to remark that I see two arguments being given and that neither side is addressing those arguments at all. It seems to me that Alex is making a perfectly defensible claim that words matter, and that certainly seems that it would be true. While I, given my own theology, wouldn't put nearly the emphasis on place of importance on it that you all do (given my general disregard for the importance of forms of rites, and that given the fact that I'm not a sacramentalist in any meaningful sense), even I can see that words matter. Unfortunately, Michael doesn't seem to be accepting that rather simple statement and instead is wanting to say that such a claim--that the words matter--is somehow an indication that there is a lack of faith. That's a pretty clear straw man, I think.

On the other hand, Michael seems to be arguing that so long as one uses words approved by the Holy See, that those words are sufficient, and from there he's just not going to admit or try to judge between degrees of sufficiency. That seems to be a perfectly reasonable argument to me, but Alex hasn't responded to that point as far as I can tell, but has returned a straw man of his own by reducing Michael's claim to the suggestion that words are completely unimportant, that you could utter any words whatsoever and have the intended effect.

So I, for one, am not seeing a necessary conflict. It seems to me that you could admit that words are important insofar as they convey the intention of the prayer/exorcism/whatever. I take it that even Michael would agree that you couldn't expect to walk up to a demon-possessed person and high-five them and shout, "Hey, Dude!" and think that could possibly effect an exorcism. But then does it follow from there that a highly specific set of words is essential, or rather without getting into concerns about minimal sufficiency, it is sufficient to pray from a range of rites that all, in their own way, do actually express the intention. If so, perhaps you could go on to argue that one rite (or whatever the word is, I have no idea) might be more effective than another and that for a myriad of reasons possibly not related to the words themselves per se. Maybe certain words are more effective in drawing our minds to Christ or focusing on His power or authority or whatever other variable you want to cite. Or maybe certain words really are more effective . . . but I can definitely say, for whatever it's worth, that I don't see that addressed in these comments. Could be I'm missing that, of course, but that's what I'm (not) seeing.

So much for my half of a cent. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:11 pm 
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That's an accurate summation as far as I can tell.

To state my own position more clearly (I hope): We are discussing matters that lie in the realm of free opinion; reasonable arguments can be adduced for both sides; and I for one don't know how to resolve them.

I'm not fond of the idea of various forms of holy water, FWIW.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:12 pm 
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TheJack, I appreciate your sense of unbiased input.

I am not trying to launch a strawman regarding the content/words of the prayers. I am stating a Catholic trusts the Holy See as the only authentic authority one appeals to for such a judgement.

My faith argument is not a personal attack but more one directed that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Holy See. Not individuals.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The intent is to make water into holy water, not to endow it with certain specified properties among those that holy water might or might not have. Unless you're holding out for the different varieties of holy water theory, which you can, but which is AFAIK not supported by any strong theological study.


So, for example, is Epiphany Holy Water is no different than non-Epiphany Holy Water?


Quote:
If you ever go for your doctorate in sacred theology, maybe there's a thesis topic for you.


I would probably need the strongest anxiety medication possible coupled with all sorts of government handouts as I would be making 15k a year, :).

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:18 pm 
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Quote:
So, for example, is Epiphany Holy Water no different than non-Epiphany Holy Water?
I don't know :fyi: Give me some reasons why it might be.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:18 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
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Prove that the Holy See has made a definite decision that the new rite Holy Water is just as effective for spiritual warfare as the traditional rite.
Sorry, but this is still begging the question. Show that the Holy See has decided that it isn't. Why should the burden of proof be on those who dispute your assertion?


Because he makes this claim:

MichaelD14 wrote:
The Holy See allows the current form because it is sufficient.


Sufficient for what?

For spiritual warfare? The Holy See has said nothing. THAT is my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Thank you for clarifying. That is a better question.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:24 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Alexandros wrote:

The source is Fr. Rippenger, who is an exorcist. Fr. Amorth also recounts that he used exorcised holy water, not just holy water, when he was combatting the demonic.



AFIK Fr Rippenger is a sort of self-appointed exorcist. He founded a group called The Dolorans. They do not appear as an official order of their Arch Diocese, https://archden.org/religious_order/ Heck, I cannot even find his name on the Archdiocese website anywhere. Funny that his website is in Greely, CO. Half of that town is related to me :)

Having known holy priests who are official exorcists, they don't tend to go around TELLING people that they are an exorcist. In fact, we who work for the parish are not supposed to give his name out to people, but, rather have our priest first review any claims. Pastor then decides if the Diocese needs to get involved.

The sort of DIY "spiritual warfare/deliverance" encouraged by the Fr Rippenger fans is tooooo much like the Pentecostalism that I experienced as a kid. No, I'm going to stick with the official men.

I don't think there is anything weird about Fr. Ripperger. He founded a society of priests whose focus is exorcism and they use the old rites. They moved to Colorado and operate with the permission of the Bishop.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:29 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
1. Go up to your priest and ask him to make holy water


The current Book of Blessings is what the Holy See approves. I'm in no position to debate if they are insufficient or incorrect.


No, no, no. That's not what I am talking about. You are already given the correct words for blessings in that book. So take that knowledge form the Holy See and consider what you said:


Quote:
Is this an episode of Charmed where the witch needs the correct words from the book or the Catholic Faith?



You are inferring that correct words may not be necessary.


So I ask again, keeping mind that you are bringing in the issue of “correct words:”

Go up to your priest and ask him to make holy water with the following words:

O Lord, we love you, please guide us. Amen.


Do you have Holy Water now? Yes or no?



2. Prove that the Holy See has made a definite decision that the new rite Holy Water is just as effective for spiritual warfare as the traditional rite.


If not, then I can legitimately question this without my faith crumbling before your keen perception of my state supernatural virtues.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
So, for example, is Epiphany Holy Water no different than non-Epiphany Holy Water?
I don't know :fyi: Give me some reasons why it might be.



Oh, I haven't looked into Epiphany water that much, I was really asking if you knew.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Sufficient for what?

For spiritual warfare? The Holy See has said nothing. THAT is my point.


Sufficient for it's purpose. A blessing for Holy Water,

If you want to focus on a "prayer of exorcism" that is found within the Rite Of Exorcism. NOT a blessing of Holy Water.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:33 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
So, for example, is Epiphany Holy Water no different than non-Epiphany Holy Water?
I don't know :fyi: Give me some reasons why it might be.



Oh, I haven't looked into Epiphany water that much, I was really asking if you knew.

Obviously not :)

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:36 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That's an accurate summation as far as I can tell.


theJack wrote:
On the other hand, Michael seems to be arguing that so long as one uses words approved by the Holy See, that those words are sufficient, and from there he's just not going to admit or try to judge between degrees of sufficiency. That seems to be a perfectly reasonable argument to me, but Alex hasn't responded to that point as far as I can tell, but has returned a straw man of his own by reducing Michael's claim to the suggestion that words are completely unimportant, that you could utter any words whatsoever and have the intended effec



That wasn't a strawman, as I clearly stated it was a hyperbole - twice. If it was a poor hyperbole, then so be it. I am stupid, not malevolent.
As for the point of me not responding to the argument, I was trying to shift through Michael's words in order to get to the heart of it - I think I finally figured it out with my above responses (in other words, my thick head is finally seeing what he is trying to say).

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:54 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Sufficient for what?

For spiritual warfare? The Holy See has said nothing. THAT is my point.


Sufficient for it's purpose. A blessing for Holy Water,


Yep. I agree with you. It's sufficient to make Holy water...



Quote:
If you want to focus on a "prayer of exorcism" that is found within the Rite Of Exorcism. NOT a blessing of Holy Water.



Um. I am not talking about the Rite of Exorcism. I have been talking about this since the first post: a prayer of exorcism with the Holy Water blessing in the old rite vs no prayers for exorcism in the Holy Water blessing for the new rite. Argument: The Old rite holy water is better for spiritual warfare as a result of these prayers - because words, and words in prayer, actually matter.


Now, with that in mind, let’s see some answers:

Alexandros wrote:
You are already given the correct words for blessings in that book. So take that knowledge form the Holy See and consider what you said:


Quote:
Is this an episode of Charmed where the witch needs the correct words from the book or the Catholic Faith?



You are inferring that correct words may not be necessary.


So I ask again, keeping mind that you are bringing in the issue of “correct words:”

1. Go up to your priest and ask him to make holy water with the following words:

O Lord, we love you, please guide us. Amen.


Do you have Holy Water now? Yes or no?



2. Prove that the Holy See has made a definite decision that the new rite Holy Water is just as effective for spiritual warfare as the traditional rite.


If not, then I can legitimately question this without my faith crumbling before your keen perception of my state supernatural virtues.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:09 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Um. I am not talking about the Rite of Exorcism. I have been talking about this since the first post: a prayer of exorcism with the Holy Water blessing in the old rite vs no prayers for exorcism in the Holy Water blessing for the new rite. Argument: The Old rite holy water is better for spiritual warfare as a result of these prayers - because words, and words in prayer, actually matter.


Yes. I see.

My objection is conflating Holy water(s) purpose in spiritual warfare. It's main purpose is to predispose one to the Sacraments. Which is the ultimate weapons for spiritual warfare - most specifically, the Sacraments of Penance and the Holy Eucharist. It's possible the Holy See revised the Blessing to avoid such CONFUSION.

And it's not as if Paul VI didn't take this matter quite seriously.

Outside of the Sacraments i'd also appeal to the Prayer to Saint Michael.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:25 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Um. I am not talking about the Rite of Exorcism. I have been talking about this since the first post: a prayer of exorcism with the Holy Water blessing in the old rite vs no prayers for exorcism in the Holy Water blessing for the new rite. Argument: The Old rite holy water is better for spiritual warfare as a result of these prayers - because words, and words in prayer, actually matter.


Yes. I see.

My objection is conflating Holy water(s) purpose in spiritual warfare. It's main purpose is to predispose one to the Sacraments. Which is the ultimate weapons for spiritual warfare - most specifically, the Sacraments of Penance and the Holy Eucharist.


I have never, ever, said holy water's main purpose was for spiritual warfare. I didn't even infer it. I just said traditional holy water is better for spiritual warfare - nothing fancy about this statement, nothing about bringing primary, secondary, or tertiary into this.

I even agreed with you that confession and the Holy Eucharist are the best means - do you remember that?



Quote:
It's possible the Holy See revised the Blessing to avoid such CONFUSION.


Do you have proof of this? Or even historical proof that laity was confused over this?


Quote:
And it's not as if Paul VI didn't take this matter quite seriously.


Taking things seriously doesn't mean you are immune to imprudence.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
I have never, ever, said holy water's main purpose was for spiritual warfare. I didn't even infer it. I just said traditional holy water is better for spiritual warfare -


In what verifiable way?


Alexandros wrote:
Taking things seriously doesn't mean you are immune to imprudence.


True yet the warning from Paul VI in 1972 made it quite clear he was far from imprudent in the utmost Spiritual danger of our time.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:40 am 
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Alexandros wrote:
What do you mean?

You're assuming what you're trying to show, and presenting it as fact. That is the logically fallacy of begging the question.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:41 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
I don't think there is anything weird about Fr. Ripperger. He founded a society of priests whose focus is exorcism and they use the old rites. They moved to Colorado and operate with the permission of the Bishop.

There is nothing weird about Fr. Ripperger's standing in the Church, put it that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:48 am 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
In Catholic rites form and matter have deep meaning. Yet, they don't suddenly depart from being licit when they change. Tradition is distorted and bastardized often by paranoia.

Actually, not only can changes to rites render them illicit, they can also render them invalid. The Church has the authority to change the form of certain rites, even of certain sacraments, but not all of them.

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