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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:48 pm 
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We all discern the spirit of what's being debated differently, though - hopefully I am not being clearly uncharitable.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:48 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
I did not miss the point you were making.

Frankly, what you are exposing is a lack of faith, or TRUST in God.

I'm sure your belief is strong but your faith?




Questioning my faith? I don’t do that to you or anyone else here.

If you didn’t miss the point then answer this question:

Which of the following prayers are better suited for spiritual warfare?


A: Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.

B: I exorcise thee, every unclean spirit, in the name of God the Father + Almighty, in the name of Jesus + Christ, His Son, our Lord and Judge, and in the power of the Holy + Spirit, that thou be depart from this creature of God N, which our Lord hath deigned to call unto His holy temple, that it may be made the temple of the living God, and that the Holy Spirit may dwell therein. Through the same Christ our Lord, who shall come to judge the living and the dead, and the world by fire.


Here is another way to put this (hyperbole). What is more efficacious when praying to Our Lady, bearing if one’s faith, dispositions, and good intentions are there: One Hail Mary or reading random words from the dictionary?

If you said the former, then you prove my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:51 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
So far, nobody has addressed Alexandros's point that words have meaning. I think that may be because it is so obviously correct that nobody would try to attack it. But then, its correctness does appear to have some important consequences. None of which have anything to do with his faith.



Is this an episode of Charmed where the witch needs the correct words from the book or the Catholic Faith?



Might as well throw out the words of consecration right?

Go try and tell an exorcist to never ever use the name of Christ, the Trinity, or the Saints when casting out demons and/or never ever command the demons in their name(s). Do you really think an exorcism would go the same without them?

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
MichaelD14 wrote:
I did not miss the point you were making.

Frankly, what you are exposing is a lack of faith, or TRUST in God.

I'm sure your belief is strong but your faith?


Questioning my faith? I don’t do that to you or anyone else here.


I have no problem with one questioning my faith.

I often do, since my belief is strong and faith is weak.

Alexandros wrote:
If you didn’t miss the point then answer this question:

Which of the following prayers are better suited for spiritual warfare?


A: Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.

B: I exorcise thee, every unclean spirit, in the name of God the Father + Almighty, in the name of Jesus + Christ, His Son, our Lord and Judge, and in the power of the Holy + Spirit, that thou be depart from this creature of God N, which our Lord hath deigned to call unto His holy temple, that it may be made the temple of the living God, and that the Holy Spirit may dwell therein. Through the same Christ our Lord, who shall come to judge the living and the dead, and the world by fire.


Here is another way to put this (hyperbole). What is more efficacious when praying to Our Lady, bearing if one’s faith, dispositions, and good intentions are there: One Hail Mary or reading random words from the dictionary?

If you said the former, then you prove my point.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:54 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
MichaelD14 wrote:
I did not miss the point you were making.

Frankly, what you are exposing is a lack of faith, or TRUST in God.

I'm sure your belief is strong but your faith?


Questioning my faith? I don’t do that to you or anyone else here.


I have no problem with one questioning my faith.

I often do, since my belief is strong and faith is weak.

Alexandros wrote:
If you didn’t miss the point then answer this question:

Which of the following prayers are better suited for spiritual warfare?


A: Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.

B: I exorcise thee, every unclean spirit, in the name of God the Father + Almighty, in the name of Jesus + Christ, His Son, our Lord and Judge, and in the power of the Holy + Spirit, that thou be depart from this creature of God N, which our Lord hath deigned to call unto His holy temple, that it may be made the temple of the living God, and that the Holy Spirit may dwell therein. Through the same Christ our Lord, who shall come to judge the living and the dead, and the world by fire.


Here is another way to put this (hyperbole). What is more efficacious when praying to Our Lady, bearing if one’s faith, dispositions, and good intentions are there: One Hail Mary or reading random words from the dictionary?

If you said the former, then you prove my point.


Seriously, I leave that the the Holy See.

If something is gravely deficient it's on their head, not mine. But I trust the Holy Spirit is not leaving the Holy See floating in Space without a guide...

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Questioning my faith? I don’t do that to you or anyone else here.


I have no problem with one questioning my faith.

I often do, since my belief is strong and faith is weak.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Quote:
Here is another way to put this (hyperbole). What is more efficacious when praying to Our Lady, bearing if one’s faith, dispositions, and good intentions are there: One Hail Mary or reading random words from the dictionary?
Definite hyperbole, and not helpful.

If (and this is a debatable point, as mentioned above), holy water is holy water is holy water, then any words that impart a blessing to it are sufficient. Some words may express the purpose of the blessing more clearly than other words, but they all work, given the premise above.

The same goes for the baptismal exorcism. I would not object to a prayer that more clearly expresses the intention, but it is a debatable point whether a less clear intention on a sacramental weakens its effectiveness.

So the question that needs to be answered is whether sacramentals like holy water and rosaries admit of degrees of blessing. And I don't have a good answer for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
So the question that needs to be answered is whether sacramentals like holy water and rosaries admit of degrees of blessing. And I don't have a good answer for that.


That may rely most on the state of grace of the faithful and the strength of their faith.

A solemn "Glory Be" by Padre Pio may be more an efficacious petition than a decade of the Holy Rosary by one in a state of grave Sin.

Though Sacramentals are a predisposition of grace.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:38 pm 
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The hyper-focus on the topic somewhat reminds me of reading Malachi Martin.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:58 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
Seriously, I leave that the the Holy See.

If something is gravely deficient it's on their head, not mine. But I trust the Holy Spirit is not leaving the Holy See floating in Space without a guide...


That’s not a very good dodge of the question.

No one said anything about a grave deficiency or the Holy See being devoid of a guide – focus on the issue at hand.

If you cannot decipher that an actual prayer of exorcism is better for spiritual warfare than a non-exorcism prayer, then why are you even commenting in this thread?

It is also interesting to note that the Holy See has never explicitly said which prayers for holy water or baptism from either rite/from are better for spiritual warfare - unless you can prove this.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Words do indeed mean something, but there's not a whole lot of theology behind sacramentals--not that they're not efficacious, but that, unlike with the sacraments, theologians haven't explored a lot of these questions.

Is a rosary blessed by a saint somehow more powerful than one blessed by a garden-variety priest, and is one blessed by a priest who is more-or-less holy somehow more powerful than one blessed by a priest living a hidden double life? How about holy water blessed by one of the three? How about holy water blessed by the secret-life priest using the old formula vs. holy water blessed by a saint-in-the-making with the new formula?

There really aren't firm answers to those and similar questions. Alexandros's opinions are not outside the realm of possibility, but they are also not self-evidently true.

I'm not arguing that Alexandros's major points here are correct. But I am arguing that his point about the importance of words is really indisputable. I obviously don't have to explain to you, Father, that very simple things can indeed be extremely important. For example, a bodily posture. Or the words of a prayer. Or any of a thousand other little things. That's a point that shouldn't get pushed under the rug in the heat of the discussion about whether, say, holy water is more or less effective than it used to be.

Also, even if the words that impart the blessing on holy water--old words or new words--bring about equally effective holy water, they may have different additional effects. Such as, for example, edifying the hearers, increasing their faith, even perhaps teaching them more about the Faith. Etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
MichaelD14 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
So far, nobody has addressed Alexandros's point that words have meaning. I think that may be because it is so obviously correct that nobody would try to attack it. But then, its correctness does appear to have some important consequences. None of which have anything to do with his faith.



Is this an episode of Charmed where the witch needs the correct words from the book or the Catholic Faith?



Might as well throw out the words of consecration right?

It's hard to imagine a Catholic making fun of the idea that getting the words right matters. :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:10 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
I have no problem with one questioning my faith.

I often do, since my belief is strong and faith is weak.


Also, I am not talking about how you evaluate yourself. I am talking about evaluating someone you don't even know.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Might as well throw out the words of consecration right?


Again, with that argument you're elevating a Sacramental to a Sacrament. Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
Here is another way to put this (hyperbole). What is more efficacious when praying to Our Lady, bearing if one’s faith, dispositions, and good intentions are there: One Hail Mary or reading random words from the dictionary?
Definite hyperbole, and not helpful.


I am exaggerating option 2, reading random words from the dictionary (with the right intention) – because no one would really do that.


Quote:
If (and this is a debatable point, as mentioned above), holy water is holy water is holy water, then any words that impart a blessing to it are sufficient. Some words may express the purpose of the blessing more clearly than other words, but they all work, given the premise above.

The same goes for the baptismal exorcism. I would not object to a prayer that more clearly expresses the intention, but it is a debatable point whether a less clear intention on a sacramental weakens its effectiveness.

So the question that needs to be answered is whether sacramentals like holy water and rosaries admit of degrees of blessing. And I don't have a good answer for that.


I think I see what you’re saying here, at least for baptism.

However, the standard blessing for Holy water, outside of mass in the new rite, doesn’t even have a reference to Satan, devils, or getting rid of evil though – so IMO, there isn’t even an intention in those words to do that. Unless option 3’s words count: “Bless and purify your Church.”

But as for intentions, (I am not being snarky with this at all) maybe ask your exorcist friend if removing 1. a command directly to the evil spirit, and 2. calling upon he name of God and or a Saint in said command would make an exorcism lasts longer/harder or even impossible. The intention would be there, as well as some form of prayer, but the explicit words would be absent.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:58 pm 
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The intent is to make water into holy water, not to endow it with certain specified properties among those that holy water might or might not have. Unless you're holding out for the different varieties of holy water theory, which you can, but which is AFAIK not supported by any strong theological study.

If you ever go for your doctorate in sacred theology, maybe there's a thesis topic for you.

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 Post subject: Re: William Friedkin's new movie: "The Devil and Fr Amorth"
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
It is also interesting to note that the Holy See has never explicitly said which prayers for holy water or baptism from either rite/from are better for spiritual warfare - unless you can prove this.


The Holy See allows the current form because it is sufficient.

On a side note, our Parish Priest has noted performing some infant Baptisms in the Extraordinary Form recently. And he may again soon for my expected (first) grandson. Yet it wouldn't be for the efficacy of the prayers - yet, more-so for the clarity for those of us attending.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:08 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Might as well throw out the words of consecration right?


Again, with that argument you're elevating a Sacramental to a Sacrament. Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Holy Communion.


Oh?

1. Go up to your priest and ask him to make holy water with the following words:

O Lord, we love you, please guide us. Amen.

Do you have Holy Water now? Yes or no?


2. Prove that the Holy See has made a definite decision that the new rite Holy Water is just as effective for spiritual warfare as the traditional rite.

(I don’t have to prove this, because I am not making unreasonable claims of the Holy See)

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
1. Go up to your priest and ask him to make holy water


The current Book of Blessings is what the Holy See approves. I'm in no position to debate if they are insufficient or incorrect.

I may prefer the older Rites, which often I do - yet, only because I find them expressing a clearer sense of sin and our need of redemption.

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 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Quote:
Prove that the Holy See has made a definite decision that the new rite Holy Water is just as effective for spiritual warfare as the traditional rite.
Sorry, but this is still begging the question. Show that the Holy See has decided that it isn't. Why should the burden of proof be on those who dispute your assertion?

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