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 Post subject: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:48 am 
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If the humanity of Chirst knows all facts on account of its dominion over all of heaven and earth,

Would not Mary share a similar knowledge in the beatific vision on account of her queenship of heaven and earth?

What would Mary not know?

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:56 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
What would Mary not know?

She knows that which God has willed her to know, and nothing more. Of course what she doesn't know may be very little, or nothing at all. I would speculate that she doesn't know the day of Christ's second coming.

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:16 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
What would Mary not know?

She knows that which God has willed her to know, and nothing more. Of course what she doesn't know may be very little, or nothing at all. I would speculate that she doesn't know the day of Christ's second coming.


So I guess what I'm saying is this:

"Yet no beatified intellect fails to know in the Word whatever pertains to itself. Now to Christ and to His dignity all things to some extent belong, inasmuch as all things are subject to Him. " (ST III q 10 a 2)

It would seem then that Mary must share a similar extent of knowledge, as she is queen of the universe.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:00 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
What would Mary not know?

She knows that which God has willed her to know, and nothing more. Of course what she doesn't know may be very little, or nothing at all. I would speculate that she doesn't know the day of Christ's second coming.


So I guess what I'm saying is this:

"Yet no beatified intellect fails to know in the Word whatever pertains to itself. Now to Christ and to His dignity all things to some extent belong, inasmuch as all things are subject to Him. " (ST III q 10 a 2)

It would seem then that Mary must share a similar extent of knowledge, as she is queen of the universe.
Did the Queen Mother in the Old Testament share all authority and knowledge that the king had?

And doesn't any analogy break down at some point?

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:34 pm 
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CC is correct. Mary's role as queen of the universe is not to rule it as Christ does.

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Does your question pertain to Mary as she is now, or when she was on earth?

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Like the angels and saints, whatever she knows now, she knows through the Church:

Quote:
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms ~ Eph. 3:10


While on Earth, she was described by Luke as 'pondering these things in her heart'. Likewise when Mary and Joseph found him in the Temple, Luke also relates that they did not understand what He was saying.
What Jesus may or may not have told her when He reached adulthood, is for anyone to guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:01 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Does your question pertain to Mary as she is now, or when she was on earth?


As she is now. I am not aware of any indication she received the beatification prior to her assumption.

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:03 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
What would Mary not know?

She knows that which God has willed her to know, and nothing more. Of course what she doesn't know may be very little, or nothing at all. I would speculate that she doesn't know the day of Christ's second coming.


So I guess what I'm saying is this:

"Yet no beatified intellect fails to know in the Word whatever pertains to itself. Now to Christ and to His dignity all things to some extent belong, inasmuch as all things are subject to Him. " (ST III q 10 a 2)

It would seem then that Mary must share a similar extent of knowledge, as she is queen of the universe.
Did the Queen Mother in the Old Testament share all authority and knowledge that the king had?

And doesn't any analogy break down at some point?


I don't think it's a matter sharing the authority in so far as execution, but rather at least from that quote from the summa, it seems to be that insofar as something is subject to the beatified soul it must be known by the beatified soul.

The king has more authority and executive power, but all in domain are subject to the king and queen equally.

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Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:05 am 
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To clarify:

Subject equally in that there subjection is equally factual, it really is in both cases;

Subject unequally insofar as we owe more to the king than the queen, and of course in the case of Christ a qualitatively different kind of allegiance is required.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:43 am 
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You're misconstruing the nature of Mary's Queenship, I believe, and coming rather too close to making her divine.

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:18 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You're misconstruing the nature of Mary's Queenship, I believe, and coming rather too close to making her divine.


Well in that case; I'll ask what is the upper limit for the knowledge of beatified souls other than Christ's?

Mary as the must holy, most obtain to that upper limit. The difference between that upper limit and beyond it should be qualitative right?

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:33 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You're misconstruing the nature of Mary's Queenship, I believe, and coming rather too close to making her divine.


I found this article http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/2006/ ... knowledge/

It seems like my question is answered:

"However, it would not necessarily follow from this fact that Mary knows the ultimate fate of every human being—who will be saved, who will be lost. On this question we can have only conjectural knowledge. Yet, the great theologian Suárez did not hesitate to express the opinion that Mary’s perception of created objects in the beatific vision embraces all things actual—past, present, and future—except those that are proper to her divine Son. (37) Such extensive knowledge might include the discernment of the saved and the lost, past, present, and future"

If there is no objection to this opinion, it seems to resolve my difficulties.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:02 am 
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I'm not in a position to check right now, but I believe the place I checked last night was not for of Suarez's opinion on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:06 am 
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I definitely think Mary's knowledge extends to all that actually exists in the present, and I see no objection to saying it extends to all that has actually existed at some point in time. I think we need to be careful with the question of future contingents, though. I think one can certainly believe that God gives Mary knowledge about some things in the future, even to the point of knowing who the predestined will be (since they are her children), but I definitely don't think she knows everything about those things which will exist in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Mary's Knowledge
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:05 pm 
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She knows all things that are, insofar as she knows God.


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