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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Yea, and I can do a google search on just about anyone famous and find all manner of outlandish claims about them! The extreme left like him because this is what they think he is trying to do, are they right? Of course not! The only ones who believe this are those who believe everything they see on the web...



You didn't understand the point I was making AT ALL. :nooo: My point is that no one knows where the Pope stands on anything because you can make just as strong an argument that he favors abortion and gay marriage as you can the opposite.


Make one, I double-dog dare you!

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:19 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
. I set the bar high for them to prove otherwise. Not a Catholic example, but a good example is POLITICO's eulogy of Billy Graham. It was all about implying that he was a social climber that changed his words to suit the direction of the winds. In an obvious attempt at character assassination by association, the writer turned the piece into an oped of Billy Graham's relationship with the hated/deposed Richard Nixon. If that was all you read you would think Billy Graham was a scoundrel.


There is a great deal of truth to that about Billy Graham though, as he himself, in his more introspective moments, admitted.

Graham was no scoundrel, but he WAS attracted to power, and he often allowed himself to be used by unscrupulous politicians for political ends, apparently unaware, or unconcerned, about how this tended to undermine his ministry. He didn't become 'the pastor to the presidents' by accident, it was a position he sought. The first president he met was Harry Truman, and he met Truman only after sending him about a dozen telegrams asking for a meeting. Why was he so insistent on meeting the president anyway, what did it have to do with his ministry?

Then, after meeting with Truman once, Graham hounded Eisenhower, begging him to run for president, and he became an advisor to Eisenhower, advising him about purely political matters, such as telling Ike that he needed to join a church because Americans wouldn't vote for a non-church goer.

Graham then became an advisor to Nixon and advised Nixon on political questions like who his running mate should be, how he should run his campaign, and what demographics to target. He gave Nixon advice such as telling him not to bother to try to win the Catholic vote because Kennedy had the Catholic vote sewn up, so she should focus on Protestants, he advised Nixon not to pick a Catholic running mate because this would alienate evangelicals. Exactly what business does a 'pastor' have offering such advice to a presidential candidate?

Graham always insisted that the advice he gave presidents was purely religious in nature and was never, but that's not true, and we have documentary evidence to prove it. When Nixon was president, Graham gave him advice about how to sell the Vietnam war to evangelicals, and he even gave Nixon advice about exactly where to bomb. This is so inappropriate it isn't even funny.

Later, Graham allowed himself to be used by Bill Clinton during the Lewinsky scandal, publicly appearing with Clinton and offering Clinton forgiveness for the affair with Lewinsky, as if it was somehow his place to do that, which it wasn't. If Graham had been a Catholic priest, he could offer Clinton sacramental absolution, but if he did that, he would be obliged to say nothing about it to anyone. But in evangelical theology, the pastor has no authority to forgive sins, so what business did he have informing us that Clinton that he 'forgave' Clinton?

I'm not saying that Graham was evil, or a bad person, in fact, on the whole, I think he was a good man, but he had a serious flaw in that he was attracted to power, and wanted to be close to power, and tended to be sycophantic towards people in power in order to stay in their good graces.

I encourage you to read Graham's authorized biography 'A Propher With Honor' by William Martin for more about this.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Yea, and I can do a google search on just about anyone famous and find all manner of outlandish claims about them! The extreme left like him because this is what they think he is trying to do, are they right? Of course not! The only ones who believe this are those who believe everything they see on the web...



You didn't understand the point I was making AT ALL. :nooo: My point is that no one knows where the Pope stands on anything because you can make just as strong an argument that he favors abortion and gay marriage as you can the opposite.


Make one, I double-dog dare you!



I already have.....if you had bothered to read it.

He seemed to speak favorably about abortion and contraception when he said that 'we must not breed like rabbits', and when he denounced the pro-life movement for being 'obsessed with abortion.' He has, in fact, been absolutely blistering in his attacks on pro-life activists, accusing them of being Pharisees and hypocrites, among other things. What did he mean by these statements? No one is completely sure, but it doesn't sound good.

He seemed to speak favorably about gay marriage when he argued that many gay marriages are deeper expressions of love and commitment than many heterosexual marriages. What did he mean by this? It doesn't sound like a criticism of gay marriage.

He has also seemed to imply that there is nothing wrong with cohabitation, saying that we need to 'respect' the love and commitment of these couples and implying that cohabitation can also be a means of grace just like sacramental marriage.

Indeed, he tends to respond to criticism and of expressions of disagreement by making vicious personal attacks against his critics, his favorite pejorative label is 'Pharisee'.

Ironically, Pope Francis has labeled critics of Amoris Latetia 'Pharisees' because we uphold Christ's teaching on marriage. Christ condemned the Pharisees for allowing divorce and remarriage and insisted that validly contracted marriage is indissoluble, but now, through a marvelous kind of reverse logic, Pope Francis informs us that because we DON'T want to allow divorce and remarriage we are Pharisees. How much sense does that make? None whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:35 pm 
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None of those are strong arguments, "seems to", is weak at best.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:54 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
None of those are strong arguments, "seems to", is weak at best.

That is precisely the whole point! Or at least a part of it. A Pope should clearly, unequivocally and unambiguously uphold the Truth.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Doom wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
. I set the bar high for them to prove otherwise. Not a Catholic example, but a good example is POLITICO's eulogy of Billy Graham. It was all about implying that he was a social climber that changed his words to suit the direction of the winds. In an obvious attempt at character assassination by association, the writer turned the piece into an oped of Billy Graham's relationship with the hated/deposed Richard Nixon. If that was all you read you would think Billy Graham was a scoundrel.


There is a great deal of truth to that about Billy Graham though, as he himself, in his more introspective moments, admitted.

Graham was no scoundrel, but he WAS attracted to power, and he often allowed himself to be used by unscrupulous politicians for political ends, apparently unaware, or unconcerned, about how this tended to undermine his ministry. He didn't become 'the pastor to the presidents' by accident, it was a position he sought. The first president he met was Harry Truman, and he met Truman only after sending him about a dozen telegrams asking for a meeting. Why was he so insistent on meeting the president anyway, what did it have to do with his ministry?

Then, after meeting with Truman once, Graham hounded Eisenhower, begging him to run for president, and he became an advisor to Eisenhower, advising him about purely political matters, such as telling Ike that he needed to join a church because Americans wouldn't vote for a non-church goer.

Graham then became an advisor to Nixon and advised Nixon on political questions like who his running mate should be, how he should run his campaign, and what demographics to target. He gave Nixon advice such as telling him not to bother to try to win the Catholic vote because Kennedy had the Catholic vote sewn up, so she should focus on Protestants, he advised Nixon not to pick a Catholic running mate because this would alienate evangelicals. Exactly what business does a 'pastor' have offering such advice to a presidential candidate?

Graham always insisted that the advice he gave presidents was purely religious in nature and was never, but that's not true, and we have documentary evidence to prove it. When Nixon was president, Graham gave him advice about how to sell the Vietnam war to evangelicals, and he even gave Nixon advice about exactly where to bomb. This is so inappropriate it isn't even funny.

Later, Graham allowed himself to be used by Bill Clinton during the Lewinsky scandal, publicly appearing with Clinton and offering Clinton forgiveness for the affair with Lewinsky, as if it was somehow his place to do that, which it wasn't. If Graham had been a Catholic priest, he could offer Clinton sacramental absolution, but if he did that, he would be obliged to say nothing about it to anyone. But in evangelical theology, the pastor has no authority to forgive sins, so what business did he have informing us that Clinton that he 'forgave' Clinton?

I'm not saying that Graham was evil, or a bad person, in fact, on the whole, I think he was a good man, but he had a serious flaw in that he was attracted to power, and wanted to be close to power, and tended to be sycophantic towards people in power in order to stay in their good graces.

I encourage you to read Graham's authorized biography 'A Propher With Honor' by William Martin for more about this.


I am not disputing any of your comment. I would agree that Billy Graham had flaws. He also used his fame to expose millions of people to the Bible, bucking a tide and generation when "Money for Nothing and Chicks for Free" was fast becoming the cultural norm. I dont know that POLITICO gave that salient fact as much as a glance. The liberal media will always, under every circumstance, attempt to undermine Judaeo Christian ethics and those that espouse them. Especially those that dare to take a role of leadership. Including and especially the head of the RCC. As a Journeyman Carpenter for many years... and a self critical perfectionist I might add... When challenged (deserved or not) I would often reply... Well, ya know, there was only one perfect carpenter (pause) and they crucified him.
My salient point is that POLITICO and almost every other publication these days prints an agenda disguised as fact. I could just imagine POLITICO writing Biblical King David's eulogy. The Pope runs into the same thing. Problem is he allows the left to use his interviews and comments to write the script for their reality show and provides no definitive clarification. That is a serious problem.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
None of those are strong arguments, "seems to", is weak at best.

That is precisely the whole point! Or at least a part of it. A Pope should clearly, unequivocally and unambiguously uphold the Truth.


No, that is not the point Doom was making. He said that a strong argument can be made from the pope's statements that he is in favor of abortion, gay marriage, co-habitation, contraception and adultery, yet he, nor anyone, can do so.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Don't got the brain right now to read the whole thread, but is this another "What the Pope Really Meant" deal?


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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Vincenzo wrote:
Don't got the brain right now to read the whole thread, but is this another "What the Pope Really Meant" deal?



Yes, round 97,875 since March 2013

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
None of those are strong arguments, "seems to", is weak at best.



THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT, and Philip Lawler's point as well, that Pope Francis is either unable or unwilling to speak clearly and THEREFORE the result is CONFUSION among the faithful because no one is sure exactly where he stands on anything. Exactly how many times do I have to say this?

I repeat, the most charitable interpretation is probably what was once said about Bill Clinton 'he means what he says when he says it, but tomorrow, when he says the exact opposite, he means that too, his sincerity is absolute, but it exists only in the passing moment,'

The charitable interpretation is that the Pope is muddleheaded and confused, the uncharitable interpretation is that he is a deceiver who is playing a kind of cynical game.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:18 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Vincenzo wrote:
Don't got the brain right now to read the whole thread, but is this another "What the Pope Really Meant" deal?



Yes, round 97,875 since March 2013


Ugh, I'll go back to reading my Superman comic.


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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:22 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
[]

I am not disputing any of your comment. I would agree that Billy Graham had flaws. He also used his fame to expose millions of people to the Bible, bucking a tide and generation when "Money for Nothing and Chicks for Free" was fast becoming the cultural norm. I don't know that POLITICO gave that salient fact as much as a glance. The liberal media will always, under every circumstance, attempt to undermine Judaeo Christian ethics and those that espouse them.


I don't think I read the article you are referring to, but I don't think they were trying to undermine Graham, just offering a bit of contrarianism, when everyone was praising him, reminding everyone that the man had flaws so let's not put him on too big of a pedestal.

In ancient Rome, whenever a general came home from war after a great conquest, he was given a parade in his honor, and while he was being paraded down the street being lauded, there was always a slave who would whisper in his ear 'sic transit gloria mundi', which, roughly translated means 'all worldly glory is temporary'. They did this to make sure that the generals didn't let this temporary popularity go to their heads.

In the same way, when a great man like Billy Graham dies, amidst all the accolades, it is good, I think, that there be some contrarians who will remind us that he was only a man, a flawed man with feet of clay, so don't make him out to be more than he was. Sic transit gloria mundi.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Vincenzo wrote:
Doom wrote:
Vincenzo wrote:
Don't got the brain right now to read the whole thread, but is this another "What the Pope Really Meant" deal?



Yes, round 97,875 since March 2013


Ugh, I'll go back to reading my Superman comic.



Definitely a better use of your time.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Someone answer me this. Not to disrespect Pope Francis, who I fervently pray for daily, and appreciate his many good qualities. And afterall he is our Pope and I will give him the upmost respect. But when I think of someone who is an absolute guardian of the unmistakably defined catholic doctrines and truths, and holds onto them with an iron fist, I think of Cardinal Burke. How could he even possibly not be considered for pope at some point in time? Tell me where I am ignorant. Please.


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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:48 pm 
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Vincenzo wrote:
Someone answers me this. Not to disrespect Pope Francis, who I fervently pray for daily, and appreciate his many good qualities. And after all, he is our Pope and I will give him the utmost respect. But when I think of someone who is an absolute guardian of the unmistakably defined Catholic doctrines and truths and holds onto them with an iron fist, I think of Cardinal Burke. How could he even possibly not be considered for the pope at some point in time? Tell me where I am ignorant. Please.


For one thing, he is an American, that right there rules him out. There is absolutely no possibility that there will be an American pope anytime within the next 500 years or so. It's impossible.

Second, I don't think he can speak Italian. It is inconceivable that there could ever be a Pope who is unable to speak to the Italian people except through an interpreter. That right there completely rules him out as well.

There is also the fact it is virtually impossible for any specific individual to plan or scheme to be elected Pope, because the office is rarely vacant, and when it is vacant, there is no campaigning, all the votes are anonymous, and there is no way for anyone to manipulate the vote. It is out of control of any individual or faction.

If someone has the ambition of being elected president, he can make it happen. If someone has the ambition of being elected Pope, he is out of luck, no one can make himself be elected Pope.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Vincenzo wrote:
Someone answers me this. Not to disrespect Pope Francis, who I fervently pray for daily, and appreciate his many good qualities. And after all, he is our Pope and I will give him the utmost respect. But when I think of someone who is an absolute guardian of the unmistakably defined Catholic doctrines and truths and holds onto them with an iron fist, I think of Cardinal Burke. How could he even possibly not be considered for the pope at some point in time? Tell me where I am ignorant. Please.


For one thing, he is an American, that right there rules him out. There is absolutely no possibility that there will be an American pope anytime within the next 500 years or so. It's impossible.

Second, I don't think he can speak Italian. It is inconceivable that there could ever be a Pope who is unable to speak to the Italian people except through an interpreter. That right there completely rules him out as well.

There is also the fact it is virtually impossible for any specific individual to plan or scheme to be elected Pope, because the office is rarely vacant, and when it is vacant, there is no campaigning, all the votes are anonymous, and there is no way for anyone to manipulate the vote. It is out of control of any individual or faction.

If someone has the ambition of being elected president, he can make it happen. If someone has the ambition of being elected Pope, he is out of luck, no one can make himself be elected Pope.


That all unfortunately makes an amazing amount of sense.


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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Vincenzo wrote:

That all, unfortunately, makes an amazing amount of sense.


Depending on how old he is, assuming he is still alive, at the next conclave, whenever it may be, I like Cardinal Muller.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Doom wrote:
[
. If someone has the ambition of being elected Pope, he is out of luck, no one can make himself be elected Pope.

What do you think about the "sankt galley mafia"?

To add to your points, it seems that Pope Francis is giving red hats to some people who have some sort of hesitation to vote for Cardinal Burke, to put it lightly.

I agree Cardinal Muller would make a good Pope, but what do you think of Sarah?

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:

To add to your points, it seems that Pope Francis is giving red hats to some people who have some sort of hesitation to vote for Cardinal Burke, to put it lightly.


Well, first of all, any pope who thinks he can 'pack' the college of cardinals with clones of himself is a fool. No cardinal is a mere pawn or clone of the Pope who elected him. This is especially true after the Pope dies and they feel free of any obligation they have once had to him.

There is an axiom in Rome, 'after a thin Pope, a fat one', which means that, historically, the Cardinals have tended to favor candidates who are the exact opposite of the previous Pope, at least in terms of personality. This is especially true after a very long, or very divisive papacy. Pope Francis' pontificate probably won't be extremely long, by historical standards, probably somewhere from 10-15 years, shorter if he chooses to resign, which in the modern era is about average, but he is extremely controversial and divisive for a Pope in the modern era.

There is also the fact that within the College of Cardinals there is a great deal of dissension and disenchantment with Francis and a growing sense that the Cardinals are experiencing a bit of buyer's remorse. According to one Vatican insider, if a conclave were held today, Francis would be lucky to get 10 votes.

Examples of the Cardinals choosing someone who is the exact opposite of the previous Pope are not hard to find.

In 1878, there were 64 Cardinals, 61 of them were able to attend the conclave (the two American Cardinals arrived in Rome just in time to hear the bells ringing announcing the election of a new Pope, and one Irish Cardinals was too sick to attend.). Of the 61 Cardinals, 58 of them had been selected by Pius IX. Clearly, this conclave was 'packed'! And yet the choice of the conclave, Cardinal Pecci, who became Leo XIII, was the exact opposite Pius IX, not so much in theology, but in his personality and approach to the Papal office.

In 1903, following the death of Leo XIII, there were 62 Cardinals, all but one of them had been selected by Leo XIII, clearly, this conclave was 'packed'! Yet they chose Cardinal Sarto, who was the complete opposite of Leo XIII.


In 1914, after the death of Pius X, who was an extremely controversial and divisive Pope, the conclave chose Cardinal Chiesa who became Benedict XV, who immediately began reversing many of Pius X's more controversial decisions.

One more example will suffice. In 1958, following the long pontificate of Pius XII, and despite the fact that Pius had chosen almost all the Cardinals, the conclave chose Cardinal Roncalli, who became John XXII, who was the exact opposite of Pius XII.

Regardless of Francis' intentions, when he is no longer Pope, whether his exit will be as a result of death or resignation, the Cardinals will feel free to do whatever they want, and will almost certainly choose quite different from Francis. He cannot choose his own successor, he cannot even make sure that his successor will follow all of his policies. If he is trying to do so, it is quite foolish of him.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:09 am 
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