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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
It's one thing to voice concerns, quite another to write books w/such titles as "The Lost Sheppard" and "The Dictator Pope", don't ya think?


There is really no question that Pope Francis has an extraordinarily authoritarian leadership style, especially when compared to his predecessors. Just ask Cardinal Mueller, who was the former head of the CDF, who got so angry at the Pope's abusive treatment towards the people who worked for the CDF, including arbitrary firings without cause, that he actually went public with his criticism of the Pope's behavior, telling Raymond Arroyo on EWTN that 'the social teaching of the Church on the rights of employees to be treated fairly by management also applies within the Church itself' and saying that he believed this principle was violated by the arbitrary terminations. Muller's criticisms of the Pope, in a round of three interviews on EWTN in the last year, has been so severe and so blistering that a Papal spokesman on Twitter responded by saying that it may be time for the Pope to impose an interdict on EWTN. :shock: Gee...responding to criticism of alleged authoritarianism by threatening to be even more brutally authoritarian, makes about as much sense as the Muslims who respond to people who suggest that Islam is violent by threatening to cut their heads off.

Pope Francis responded to Muller's criticisms by abruptly dismissing him from his position of the CDF, a move which Muller publicly described as 'unacceptable.'

Now, Cardinal Muller is hardly an extremist, a reactionary, a traditionalist or any of the other insults that Dave Armstrong tends to hurl at critics of Pope Francis. Muller is, by any reasonable standard, fairly moderate theologically, especially for a German cardinal, a country known for producing clerics with extreme views (Cardinals Kasper, Lehmann and Marx being prominent examples).

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:46 am 
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The problems I see here are:

1. If the atheist writer is purposely misquoting Francis, then why does Francis keep talking to a guy who lies about him?

2. If this guy is NOT misquoting Francis, then Francis is lying and trying to have it both ways.

Either way, does Francis come out looking very Catholic, let alone a leader of the Catholic Church? Sorry, but the question MUST be posed, in addition to "Is the manner in which Francis is leading the Church changing it for better or for worse?"

I think it is for the worse.

Jesus challenged leaders of His time in Judaism's most venerated Temple itself. While none of us are on par with Jesus, He did ask us to follow Him. In this regard, I challenge Francis and his ability to honestly and faithfully lead people to God in accordance with his position as the successor of Peter. I understand that this can be viewed as "inciting of sedevacantism" and is unsettling, but standing idly by as a potential heretic leads us off a cliff is far, far worse a sin. How many more people are being led astray now by this sort of back and forth on what we know to be True vs what this guy is "feeling?" Leftism is a poison outside the Church. Inside, it's a death sentence.

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Last edited by Wolfguard on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:48 am 
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Doom wrote:
To put it frankly, the idea of ordinary lay Catholics looking to the POPE for guidance on day to day matters of the faith is a sign of a serious imbalance in our understanding of the Church. Before the 20th century, such a thought would have seemed downright bizarre to Catholics.



I was hoping I was not the only one who felt this way! Our mass media smaller world has a lot to do w/this.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:28 am 
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Wolfguard wrote:
1. If the atheist writer is purposely misquoting Francis, then why does Francis keep talking to a guy who lies about him?

2. If this guy is NOT misquoting Francis, then Francis is lying and trying to have it both ways.

As Professor Kirke says in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (quoting from memory), "Accusing someone of lying whom you've always known to be truthful is a very serious thing, a very serious thing indeed." But I don't think anyone is lying here. It's possible Scalfari misunderstood what the Pope said to him (but if so, why doesn't the Pope say so? This is the fourth time, according to Scalfari, that the Pope has told him that the souls of the reprobate are annihilated. Why would you allow someone to print such a misunderstanding multiple times?), and even the Vatican has not accused Scalfari of lying, only casting doubt on whether he reported the Pope's exact words (since he doesn't use a tape recorder or take notes).

A lot has been made about the fact that Scalfari is an atheist. But then so was Peter Seewald at the time he interviewed then-Cardinal Ratzinger for Salt of the Earth (1996). Seewald later returned to the Church.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:02 am 
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Wolfguard wrote:
T

2. If this guy is NOT misquoting Francis, then Francis is lying and trying to have it both ways.

.



The thing is, Pope Francis himself has never directly denied that anything Scalfari has ever printed is untrue. All the denials have been issued on his behalf by his spokesman. We ASSUME, without any real basis other than wishful thinking, that the reason the denials are being made is that the Pope has talked to his spokesmen and told them to issue a denial, but we don't actually know this for sure. Frankly, I think the real truth is likely that the Pope's spokesmen were caught flatfooted by the stories when they appeared in the media, and they issued a denial of their own accord, because they figure that protecting the Pope's image is their job, a job that the Pope makes very difficult by constantly making asinine, unscripted comments where he sticks his foot in his mouth. I want to hear Pope Francis deny all these remarks from his own lips, not from his spokesmen, who, for all we know, may not have even talked to the Pope before issuing their denials.

And we do know that the Vatican press office does spend a lot of time on damage control because the Pope's impromptu comments are often heavily edited and revised before being posted on the Vatican webpage, which is a clear indication that the Vatican bureaucracy is well aware of just how harmful many of the Pope's comments are.

Indeed, given how often this Pope makes severe gaffes when speaking off-script, it's a fair question to ask why he keeps doing so. He has official speechwriters who spend hours writing carefully worded remarks that avoid all the verbal potholes he keeps falling into, and yet, he constantly throws the speech away and speaks off the cuff. Why?

Earlier in this thread, Pope Francis was compared to Donald Trump in that they are both populists who have unconventional approaches to their offices. Here is another similarity: they are both extremely undisciplined and have a tendency to say really stupid things when speaking off the cuff, which tends to send their press offices scrambling to do damage control.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:53 am 
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On the more general topic of Church authority figures disappointing some of us with their -- questionable -- statements, I look to my own archdiocese.

Recently, our State legislature considered tapping into our Land Grant Permanent Fund, specifically designated for fiscal emergencies, to pay for home visiting, pre-kindergarten services and other children's programs. The bill failed. All of the bishops in my State, who had openly supported and advocated for the bill, then publicly accused legislators of racism in their votes. Some of these legislators are Hispanic and one Hispanic legislature in married to a native American woman. The bishops have recently doubled down on their accusation of racism.

Without too much roiling, I wonder how the Bishops knew the hearts of each legislator who voted against the bill well enough to publicly accuse them of being racist. My reaction is now to dismiss anything that comes out of any bishop in my state ... except when they are exercising the office of the priesthood. In short, they have all lost my confidence.

These, and other, pronouncements by various priests about areas of civil life are reminiscent of the slope that led to Liberation Theology. And the resulting murders of opponents of the political causes espoused by some of the priests.

It seems to presage the same sort of replacement of religious priorities by social activism (to the extent of denying God and Christ) that has corrupted and destroyed most of Protestantism. What I want to be informed of by my priests is how to live a Christian life; I don't want my priest to inform and condemn me, with no insight into my intent, that my vote does not please their sense of civic process.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:58 am 
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Doom wrote:
The thing is, Pope Francis himself has never directly denied that anything Scalfari has ever printed is untrue. All the denials have been issued on his behalf by his spokesman.

And even those denials are classic non-denial denials: "Since Mr. Scalfari does not take notes or use a recorder but relies on his own memory to reconstruct the Pope's words, these cannot be considered the Pope's exact words," etc.

If I wanted to float a trial balloon, I might speak to someone who would give me deniability if there were reasons to deny it further down the road. A journalist such as Scalfari would be ideal for that purpose, since he doesn't take notes or use a recording device.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
The thing is, Pope Francis himself has never directly denied that anything Scalfari has ever printed is untrue. All the denials have been issued on his behalf by his spokesman.

And even those denials are classic non-denial denials: "Since Mr. Scalfari does not take notes or use a recorder but relies on his own memory to reconstruct the Pope's words, these cannot be considered the Pope's exact words," etc.

If I wanted to float a trial balloon, I might speak to someone who would give me deniability if there were reasons to deny it further down the road. A journalist such as Scalfari would be ideal for that purpose since he doesn't take notes or use a recording device.


I think the most charitable interpretation is that the Pope is not particularly knowledgeable in theology, and he is an extremely unsystematic thinker who tends to get carried away into rhetorical flights of fancy and ends up saying things without really being aware of the full implications of what he is saying, only really realizing that has said something really stupid later on down the line, if at all. I also think he may have a bit of a problem that he tends to try to please a particular audience by saying something he thinks they want to hear, which may be why he says stuff that sounds orthodox when he is talking to Catholics, and stuff that sounds heterodox when talking to an atheist.

One thing that was said about Bill Clinton may be true of Pope Francis as well 'he means what he says when he says it, but tomorrow he will say the exact opposite, and he will mean that too, his sincerity is absolute, but it exists only in the passing moment.'


Again, that he is simply undisciplined and doesn't think about what he is saying before he says it, is probably the most charitable interpretation of his behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:43 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
It's possible Scalfari misunderstood what the Pope said to him (but if so, why doesn't the Pope say so? This is the fourth time, according to Scalfari, that the Pope has told him that the souls of the reprobate are annihilated. Why would you allow someone to print such a misunderstanding multiple times?), and even the Vatican has not accused Scalfari of lying, only casting doubt on whether he reported the Pope's exact words (since he doesn't use a tape recorder or take notes).

I don't use the word "lying" trivially nor lightly. There facts as they are remain so - at least one person is being dishonest here. One time is is an accident. At this point, it's willful and on purpose. And if Francis is loath to clarify during these interviews AND reprimand his "friend" for these articles, then his permitting such things to occur continuously are inexcusable blunders of epic proportions on the part of Francis. But again, he's from a world which is ruled by the left, so does he really have a problem with any of this?

Doesn't seem like it.

Quote:
A lot has been made about the fact that Scalfari is an atheist. But then so was Peter Seewald at the time he interviewed then-Cardinal Ratzinger for Salt of the Earth (1996). Seewald later returned to the Church.
[/quote]
But Ratzinger wasn't a leftist. He may have been weak, but he was not sympathetic to the ideology of the enemy.

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Last edited by Wolfguard on Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Doom wrote:
The thing is, Pope Francis himself has never directly denied that anything Scalfari has ever printed is untrue. All the denials have been issued on his behalf by his spokesman. We ASSUME, without any real basis other than wishful thinking, that the reason the denials are being made is that the Pope has talked to his spokesmen and told them to issue a denial, but we don't actually know this for sure. Frankly, I think the real truth is likely that the Pope's spokesmen were caught flatfooted by the stories when they appeared in the media, and they issued a denial of their own accord, because they figure that protecting the Pope's image is their job, a job that the Pope makes very difficult by constantly making asinine, unscripted comments where he sticks his foot in his mouth. I want to hear Pope Francis deny all these remarks from his own lips, not from his spokesmen, who, for all we know, may not have even talked to the Pope before issuing their denials.

All of THIS.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:45 am 
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Perhaps one of the prerequisites in nominating a potential pope is that he demonstrate the ability to reason at a high level. Perhaps proficiency in one or two of a list of skills. Chess Grandmaster, PHD in mathematics or engineering. Something that proves ability to think exponentially.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:00 am 
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https://www.catholic.com/qa/did-the-pop ... esnt-exist

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Then the atheist writer is purposely misquoting Francis again, ergo Francis' decision to keep speaking to this individual is an ignorant one at best. And Doom is spot on - the pope needs to clarify, not some assistant. And in this clarification, he needs to denounce these "misquotes" as they are - outright lies of an insidious nature.


The problem is, he won't. And there in lies OUR problem as Catholics.

:?

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Wolfguard wrote:
Then the atheist writer is purposely misquoting Francis again, ergo Francis' decision to keep speaking to this individual is an ignorant one at best. And Doom is spot on - the pope needs to clarify, not some assistant. And in this clarification, he needs to denounce these "misquotes" as they are - outright lies of an insidious nature.


The problem is, he won't. And there in lies OUR problem as Catholics.

:?


Not my problem.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:35 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Perhaps one of the prerequisites in nominating a potential pope is that he demonstrate the ability to reason at a high level. Perhaps proficiency in one or two of a list of skills. Chess Grandmaster, PHD in mathematics or engineering. Something that proves ability to think exponentially.

The ideal according to Canon law is that even diocesan bishops hold doctorates or at least a licentiate in Theology, Bible or Canon law.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:41 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
MichaelD14 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
The author of this book was interviewed on "World Over Live"... /


Philip Lawler's book "The Faithfully Departed" I appreciated. This one is tainted with confirmation bias.

How so?


Phil expressed his bias right from the introduction...



I'm curious (Peregrinator), have you read this book? If so, what are your thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:18 pm 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
MichaelD14 wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
MichaelD14 wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
The author of this book was interviewed on "World Over Live"... /


Philip Lawler's book "The Faithfully Departed" I appreciated. This one is tainted with confirmation bias.

How so?


Phil expressed his bias right from the introduction...



I'm curious (Peregrinator), have you read this book? If so, what are your thoughts?



I have read it. And I've read The Dictator Pope as well. The Dictator Pope is an extremely polemical book that I think frequently falls into the kind of exaggerations and rhetorical flourishes that characterize Francis at his worst.

You use the word 'bias' but what would be more accurate would be to say is that Lawler states his THESIS right there in the introduction. And his thesis is that, whatever the reason, and at this point, it is difficult not to fear the worst, Pope Francis has sown confusion and doubt in the minds of many Catholics all over the world, and undermined the faith of millions.

This is simply undeniable, all one has to do is perform a simple Google search on 'Pope Francis' and see what comes up, and you'll find thousands of articles all over the Internet asserting things like

Pope Francis is in favor of gay marriage

Pope Francis is okay with so-called 'sex change' operations'

Pope Francis has no real problem with abortion, in fact, he thinks that abortions are necessary in order to make sure that we don't 'breed like rabbits', and he thinks that pro-lifers are 'obsessed' and 'need to get a life'

Pope Francis thinks that many homosexual couples have a more 'real' marriage than many heterosexual ones (this is something that he has actually said, are you aware of this?')

Pope Francis has no problem with cohabitation, even on a permanent basis, instead of marriage, indeed, he has said that there shouldn't be a stigma against cohabitation

Pope Francis doesn't have a problem with divorce and remarriage

All of these claims) are based on things that he has actually said, what did he mean by any of the stuff he said? I don't know what he meant, all I can say is that the fact that he is unwilling or unable to speak clearly causes a huge problem for many.

I have personally seen people say things like 'I like Pope Francis because he realizes that Catholicism is a load of nonsense and he is trying to bring the Church into the 21st century by getting rid of antiquated doctrines like opposition to abortion and homosexuality, celibacy and the refusal to ordain women.'

This is what many people think Pope Francis is trying to do, and that is why they like him. Are they right? I honestly don't know. I have absolutely no idea what position Pope Francis has on ANY of the really contentious issues confronting the Church.


So, yes, Lawler's thesis that Pope Francis has sown confusion in the minds of the faithful, is undeniably true.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:48 am 
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Yea, and I can do a google search on just about anyone famous and find all manner of outlandish claims about them! The extreme left like him because this is what they think he is trying to do, are they right? Of course not! The only ones who believe this are those who believe everything they see on the web...

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:11 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Yea, and I can do a google search on just about anyone famous and find all manner of outlandish claims about them! The extreme left like him because this is what they think he is trying to do, are they right? Of course not! The only ones who believe this are those who believe everything they see on the web...


There is a lot of truth in what you say. I always consider the source and the motivation behind the writer. Is it information or disinformation? Cherry picking, subtle turns of a word or phrase, are the stock in trade of secular humanist writers. My default position is that secular humanists are the enemy. They specifically intend to destroy Judaeo/Christian ethics. I set the bar high for them to prove otherwise. Not a Catholic example, but a good example is POLITICO's eulogy of Billy Graham. It was all about implying that he was a social climber that changed his words to suit the direction of the winds. In an obvious attempt at character assasination by association, the writer turned the piece into an oped of Billy Graham's relationship with the hated/deposed Richard Nixon. If that was all you read you would think Billy Graham was a scoundrel.
That said, the current Pope certainly can be vague. That method of communication gives the enemies of the RCC a fresh and abundant supply for the tabloids. Seems like, either he doesn't understand or he doesn't care about the real world.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
Yea, and I can do a google search on just about anyone famous and find all manner of outlandish claims about them! The extreme left like him because this is what they think he is trying to do, are they right? Of course not! The only ones who believe this are those who believe everything they see on the web...



You didn't understand the point I was making AT ALL. :nooo: My point is that no one knows where the Pope stands on anything because you can make just as strong an argument that he favors abortion and gay marriage as you can the opposite. So the result is confusion. Even the Vatican press office is aware of the problem, which is why someone frequently edits out of the most offensive stuff that Pope Francis says before posting his comments on the Vatican website.

I defy you to find articles that can quote John Paul II or Benedict XVI, or even Paul VI or John XXIII, where he says the kinds of things that Pope Francis has said, such as, for example, that gay marriage and cohabitation convey just as much grace as a sacramental marriage, or that pro-lifers need to get over their 'obsession' with abortion.

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