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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:13 am 
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100th post in this thread.

I'm sorry for having brought this (thread) upon the board, btw. :-( I could get it closed . . . should I ask about eens? I could keep it "on topic" by asking what PF would say about that. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:29 am 
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Quote:
[Cardinal Sarto] was the complete opposite of Leo XIII.

Can you explain, please?

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:35 am 
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Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
Yea, and I can do a google search on just about anyone famous and find all manner of outlandish claims about them! The extreme left like him because this is what they think he is trying to do, are they right? Of course not! The only ones who believe this are those who believe everything they see on the web...



You didn't understand the point I was making AT ALL. :nooo: My point is that no one knows where the Pope stands on anything because you can make just as strong an argument that he favors abortion and gay marriage as you can the opposite. So the result is confusion. Even the Vatican press office is aware of the problem, which is why someone frequently edits out of the most offensive stuff that Pope Francis says before posting his comments on the Vatican website.

I defy you to find articles that can quote John Paul II or Benedict XVI, or even Paul VI or John XXIII, where he says the kinds of things that Pope Francis has said, such as, for example, that gay marriage and cohabitation convey just as much grace as a sacramental marriage, or that pro-lifers need to get over their 'obsession' with abortion.



First Anglican Pope?

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:40 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Quote:
[Cardinal Sarto] was the complete opposite of Leo XIII.

Can you explain, please?


Are you at all familiar with their pontificates? Pope Leo was known for being genial, friendly, and taking a generally relaxed approach to the Papacy. He has often been compared to John Paul II and John XXIII. Pius X was dour, authoritarian and spent his entire pontificate cracking down on what he saw as 'heresy', in what could only be described as a 'witch hunt'. According to legend, which probably has more truth to it than falsity, has it that after Cardinal Chiesa was elected as Pope Benedict XV, he found, on the Papal desk, a document authorization his own excommunication for heresy. Pius X spent 11 years on an aggressive crackdown on dissent Benedict XV immediately ended Pius' crusade and brought an end to the internecine warfare brewing with the Church. Without ever explicitly criticizing of condemning his predecessor, Benedict XV quietly reversed all of Pius' policies, leaving on the 'Oath against Modernism' in place.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:44 am 
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GKC wrote:
First Anglican Pope?


::): Apparently, Francis thinks he is Archbishop of Canterbury

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:46 am 
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Doom wrote:
GKC wrote:
First Anglican Pope?


::): Apparently, Francis thinks he is Archbishop of Canterbury


Oh, dear.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:36 am 
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MichaelD14 wrote:
I'm curious (Peregrinator), have you read this book? If so, what are your thoughts?

Not yet

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:37 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
The ideal according to Canon law is that even diocesan bishops hold doctorates or at least a licentiate in Theology, Bible or Canon law.

One wonders how often this law is observed.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:

To add to your points, it seems that Pope Francis is giving red hats to some people who have some sort of hesitation to vote for Cardinal Burke, to put it lightly.


Well, first of all, any pope who thinks he can 'pack' the college of cardinals with clones of himself is a fool. No cardinal is a mere pawn or clone of the Pope who elected him. This is especially true after the Pope dies and they feel free of any obligation they have once had to him.

There is an axiom in Rome, 'after a thin Pope, a fat one', which means that, historically, the Cardinals have tended to favor candidates who are the exact opposite of the previous Pope, at least in terms of personality. This is especially true after a very long, or very divisive papacy. Pope Francis' pontificate probably won't be extremely long, by historical standards, probably somewhere from 10-15 years, shorter if he chooses to resign, which in the modern era is about average, but he is extremely controversial and divisive for a Pope in the modern era.

There is also the fact that within the College of Cardinals there is a great deal of dissension and disenchantment with Francis and a growing sense that the Cardinals are experiencing a bit of buyer's remorse. According to one Vatican insider, if a conclave were held today, Francis would be lucky to get 10 votes.

Examples of the Cardinals choosing someone who is the exact opposite of the previous Pope are not hard to find.

In 1878, there were 64 Cardinals, 61 of them were able to attend the conclave (the two American Cardinals arrived in Rome just in time to hear the bells ringing announcing the election of a new Pope, and one Irish Cardinals was too sick to attend.). Of the 61 Cardinals, 58 of them had been selected by Pius IX. Clearly, this conclave was 'packed'! And yet the choice of the conclave, Cardinal Pecci, who became Leo XIII, was the exact opposite Pius IX, not so much in theology, but in his personality and approach to the Papal office.

In 1903, following the death of Leo XIII, there were 62 Cardinals, all but one of them had been selected by Leo XIII, clearly, this conclave was 'packed'! Yet they chose Cardinal Sarto, who was the complete opposite of Leo XIII.


In 1914, after the death of Pius X, who was an extremely controversial and divisive Pope, the conclave chose Cardinal Chiesa who became Benedict XV, who immediately began reversing many of Pius X's more controversial decisions.

One more example will suffice. In 1958, following the long pontificate of Pius XII, and despite the fact that Pius had chosen almost all the Cardinals, the conclave chose Cardinal Roncalli, who became John XXII, who was the exact opposite of Pius XII.

Regardless of Francis' intentions, when he is no longer Pope, whether his exit will be as a result of death or resignation, the Cardinals will feel free to do whatever they want, and will almost certainly choose quite different from Francis. He cannot choose his own successor, he cannot even make sure that his successor will follow all of his policies. If he is trying to do so, it is quite foolish of him.


Just wow.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:20 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Just wow.


What do you mean? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Doom wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Just wow.


What do you mean? :scratch:


That you are The Man, when it comes to Pope facts?

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:43 pm 
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GKC wrote:

That you are The Man, when it comes to Pope facts?


Maybe that is what he meant. I'm good at memorizing lists of things.

I used to be able to recite the list of Popes in order and I could go back to the end of the Great Western Schism with the election of Martin V in 1417, and give the dates of their reigns. But you know how it goes, if you don't use it, you lose it. I can't do that anymore.

I can however easily recite the list of all POTUS, including exact dates of their terms, as well as the birth and death dates of each. This seems to me to be a much less impressive feat of memory, but whenever I do it at a party, everyone seems impressed.

The monarchs of England starting with Henry VII, I can list as well, but given that this list has not changed in my lifetime, I almost feel like I'm cheating.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
None of those are strong arguments, "seems to", is weak at best.



THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT, and Philip Lawler's point as well, that Pope Francis is either unable or unwilling to speak clearly and THEREFORE the result is CONFUSION among the faithful because no one is sure exactly where he stands on anything. Exactly how many times do I have to say this?

I repeat, the most charitable interpretation is probably what was once said about Bill Clinton 'he means what he says when he says it, but tomorrow, when he says the exact opposite, he means that too, his sincerity is absolute, but it exists only in the passing moment,'

The charitable interpretation is that the Pope is muddleheaded and confused, the uncharitable interpretation is that he is a deceiver who is playing a kind of cynical game.


No, it was not your entire point. At least part of your point was that a strong argument could be made that PF favors abortion and gay marriage, yet failed to make one or show that anyone has.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:40 am 
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Doom wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Just wow.


What do you mean? :scratch:


The analogy that comes to mind. Every 10 or 15 yrs a group of seamen converge from across the globe with divergent ideas of how to handle the helm in an increasing stormy sea . They themselves have unproven skill to manage or even steer a ship of that size and capacity. They take a few days out of their busy schedules to decide who will take the helm for the next voyage. They then disburse having no idea if the new skipper knows what he's doing. Its a roll of the dice every 10 or 20 yrs.

Then, who knows?
Carte blanche.
Anything goes.
Often enough, the Cap'n goes awry
the mates stew and they mutter
...God bless him, how long til we get another trye?
Har! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:31 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Doom wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Just wow.


What do you mean? :scratch:


The analogy that comes to mind. Every 10 or 15 yrs a group of seamen converge from across the globe with divergent ideas of how to handle the helm in an increasing stormy sea . They themselves have unproven skill to manage or even steer a ship of that size and capacity. They take a few days out of their busy schedules to decide who will take the helm for the next voyage. They then disburse having no idea if the new skipper knows what he's doing. Its a roll of the dice every 10 or 20 yrs.

Then, who knows?
Carte blanche.
Anything goes.
Often enough, the Cap'n goes awry
the mates stew and they mutter
...God bless him, how long til we get another trye?
Har! ;)


Well, my conjecture could still be right, just not the primary meaning.

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:33 am 
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Doom wrote:
Vincenzo wrote:
Don't got the brain right now to read the whole thread, but is this another "What the Pope Really Meant" deal?



Yes, round 97,875 since March 2013


And, one might conclude, that indicates that the Church is unsure of what the Pope is saying. That is not good.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:47 am 
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Doom wrote:
...THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT, and Philip Lawler's point as well, that Pope Francis is either unable or unwilling to speak clearly and THEREFORE the result is CONFUSION among the faithful because no one is sure exactly where he stands on anything. Exactly how many times do I have to say this?

I repeat, the most charitable interpretation is probably what was once said about Bill Clinton 'he means what he says when he says it, but tomorrow, when he says the exact opposite, he means that too, his sincerity is absolute, but it exists only in the passing moment,'

The charitable interpretation is that the Pope is muddleheaded and confused, the uncharitable interpretation is that he is a deceiver who is playing a kind of cynical game.


Doom, I sometimes read your comments as exaggeration approaching hyperbole, but not in this case. IMHO, this could be your finest hour. If the head of the Church is the very source of uncertainty and confusion, regardless of his beliefs and intent, then he is not serving the Church well.

As to the lists of issues you have presented, I am not surprised that a Latin American Pope would hold such liberal -- well, let's be frank, revolutionary -- positions. The Church, at the parish and diocese level in Latin America, is not the Church of North America or Europe. I have heard from several Peace Corps volunteers that worked in Latin America, that the local parish conducted itself as something ranging from a Unitarian gathering to a hippy commune. Latin America is a constantly brewing stew of leftist economics and utopian dreams. Which is why the traditional Catholic Church in much of Latin America, opposing modernity, is largely rejected at the street level, while the underground Socialist version has recently had some strength.

Keep up the interesting comments.

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:50 am 
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GKC wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Doom wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Just wow.


What do you mean? :scratch:


The analogy that comes to mind. Every 10 or 15 yrs a group of seamen converge from across the globe with divergent ideas of how to handle the helm in an increasing stormy sea . They themselves have unproven skill to manage or even steer a ship of that size and capacity. They take a few days out of their busy schedules to decide who will take the helm for the next voyage. They then disburse having no idea if the new skipper knows what he's doing. Its a roll of the dice every 10 or 20 yrs.

Then, who knows?
Carte blanche.
Anything goes.
Often enough, the Cap'n goes awry
the mates stew and they mutter
...God bless him, how long til we get another trye?
Har! ;)


Well, my conjecture could still be right, just not the primary meaning.


:thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:41 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Doom wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

Just wow.


What do you mean? :scratch:


The analogy that comes to mind. Every 10 or 15 yrs a group of seamen converge from across the globe with divergent ideas of how to handle the helm in an increasing stormy sea . They themselves have unproven skill to manage or even steer a ship of that size and capacity. They take a few days out of their busy schedules to decide who will take the helm for the next voyage. They then disburse having no idea if the new skipper knows what he's doing. Its a roll of the dice every 10 or 20 yrs.

Gosh, it's almost like Someone else is at work in guiding the Church, then. Hm. Weird. Who'd have thought Catholics believe that? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: P. Francis: "There is no Hell"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:44 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:

The analogy that comes to mind. Every 10 or 15 yrs a group of seamen converge from across the globe with divergent ideas of how to handle the helm in an increasing stormy sea. They themselves have unproven skill to manage or even steer a ship of that size and capacity. They take a few days out of their busy schedules to decide who will take the helm for the next voyage. They then disburse having no idea if the new skipper knows what he's doing. Its a roll of the dice every 10 or 20 yrs.

Then, who knows?
Carte blanche.
Anything goes.
Often enough, the Cap'n goes awry
the mate's stew and they mutter
...God bless him, how long till we get another try?
Har! ;)



Why do you find it surprising to learn that Popes have different personalities and that Vatican policy changes as the identity of the Pope changes? Are you under the impression that everything the Pope says and does is infallible, so that if one Pope says he really likes Diet Coke then all of his successors have to express the same preference or else it undermines the Church?

When it comes to Papal policy, things like relations with foreign nations, making treaties, forging alliances, tax policy, finances etc are the kinds of things that can and OUGHT to change according to not merely to changing circumstances but due to the changing priorities of the new Pope. It is not as if, because one Pope forges an alliance with, say, France, that all Popes have to maintain that alliance forever no matter what, even if an anticlerical government is elected with starts persecuting the Church.

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