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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Doom wrote:
The more I learn, the more I become convinced that Thomism is the only philosophy that can possibly explain or defend Christianity, the only philosophy which is fully consistent with theism. Everything else leads, either directly or indirectly, to atheism, pantheism or some other non-Christian theology.

I agree with ... this is not a good way to start the week.

The Church did have a strong Platonic bent in the first millennium, some of which St. Thomas assimilated and some of which he didn't, so it's not out of the question that a modified Platonism could do that job too. So I guess I don't quite agree with Doom after all. :cloud9:

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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Doom wrote:
The more I learn, the more I become convinced that Thomism is the only philosophy that can possibly explain or defend Christianity, the only philosophy which is fully consistent with theism. Everything else leads, either directly or indirectly, to atheism, pantheism or some other non-Christian theology.

I agree with ... this is not a good way to start the week.

The Church did have a strong Platonic bent in the first millennium, some of which St. Thomas assimilated and some of which he didn't, so it's not out of the question that a modified Platonism could do that job too. So I guess I don't quite agree with Doom after all. :cloud9:


But I didn't say 'Aristotelianism' I said Thomism, the two are not the same, you do indeed agree with me because remember I defined 'classical theism' as an intellectual tradition that began with Plato and Aristotle, continues with the Neo-Platonists and St. Augustine (who was a Neo-Platonist and not an Aristotelian) and continues with St. Thomas and the Medieval Scholastics.

The common view that Scholasticism was just Aristotelianism is wrong, although he did use the terminology and methods of Aristotle in many ways, St. Thomas disagreed with Aristotle in many very significant ways, in particular on the question of universals. Scholastic realism disagrees with both Aristotelian realism and Platonic realism. And on other questions, St. Thomas ended up siding with the Neo-Platonists and disagreed with Aristotle.

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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 5:16 pm 
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I know. But the Church got along for quite some time without any admixture of Aristotle.

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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:05 pm 
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And the Church also went a long time without having to deal with critics who openly challenged the foundations of Christian belief.

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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:26 pm 
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I would have to disagree with that.

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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I would have to disagree with that.


For a good 1000 years or so, the Church was confronted with heretics and schismatics, and secular rulers who wanted power over the Church, but not atheists who denied the existence of God, denied the truth of the gospels and thought that Christianity was a moral blight on humanity that needed to be eradicated. That only came in the 18th century.

Now, many of the secular rulers who went to war with the Church may well have been closet atheists, but if so, they never said so publicly. There was so little overt atheism that when St. Thomas attempted to prove the existence of God in the Summa, he did so only as an academic exercise and not because the conclusion was actually controversial or regarded by anyone as something that needed to be proved, and when he listed objections, he could only find two, even though he usually listed three counterarguments to each of his propositions.

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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:38 pm 
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"Atheists" =/= "people who openly challenge the foundations of Christian belief"

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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"Atheists" =/= "people who openly challenge the foundations of Christian belief"


The foundations of Christianity

The existence of God

The inspiration and truth of the scriptures

Sin exists

Forgiveness of sins is both possible and desirable


etc

The heretics and schismatics were not challenging these kinds of basic principles, they advanced heresies on far more peripheral issues.
These fundamental principles were being defended merely as an exercise, not because anyone was challenging them.

Indeed, the truly remarkable thing about the various heresies of the middle ages is that all the debate over them was based on an interpretation of scripture and Church teaching. In the middle of these disputes, there was really nobody saying 'the Bible is a book full of myths, and I reject its authority', and there were very few people who were even saying 'I reject the authority of the Church' they were saying 'that particular Church teaching doesn't apply to me because...' There was a mass of common assumptions between the various factions.

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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 2:23 am 
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Doom wrote:
If you have a YouTube channel, I strongly recommend subscribing to the channel 'Classical Theist'

https://www.youtube.com/user/ChairmanDrek757

He is a Catholic and a Thomist who often criticizes William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga, saying that they believe in what he calls 'theistic personalism' which is distinct from what he calls 'classical theism'. Classical theism is the product of a long intellectual tradition going back to Plato and Aristotle, to the Neoplatonists like Plotinus, to Augustine, St. Thomas and the medieval scholastics.

Theistic personalism, however, rejects this long intellectual tradition and is ultimately incapable of defending either the existence of God, the truth of Christianity or Christian orthodoxy.


Oh come on!

I too can point out many of Craig's errors (And he can point about about some hundreds of mine). But so what?

His charisma. His charm. He's intellect. He's just ... the whole package minus a few things. Let's not quible over that.


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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:28 pm 
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That Classical Theist kid has like 7 videos.

I've watched shortly some and can't find where he suposedly show how Platinga and Craig are wrong.

PED, get thy own youtube channel so I can subscribe.


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 Post subject: Re: William Lane Craig deferring to Tim McGrew
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
PIZZA IS A TYPE OF FOOD!


Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

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