Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 9 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:11 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:23 am
Posts: 19259
Location: NYC area
Religion: Catholic
Fr. Mitch Pacwa mentioned that the first time anyone ever said that the miracle was the miracle of generosity, was in 1814, but he didn't mention who proposed that idea.

Anyone able to fill in the missing info?

_________________
A modern day Shunamite woman. (2 Kgs. 4:26)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:46 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76073
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
For my part, I'm more concerned with the fact that Pope Francis once described the multiplication of the loaves as a 'parable', which implies that he doesn't believe that it was even a merely natural event, but that it never happened at all.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:21 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:23 am
Posts: 19259
Location: NYC area
Religion: Catholic
Doom wrote:
For my part, I'm more concerned with the fact that Pope Francis once described the multiplication of the loaves as a 'parable', which implies that he doesn't believe that it was even a merely natural event, but that it never happened at all.


I try and give him as much of a wide berth as possible, but with comments like that, I cringe.

_________________
A modern day Shunamite woman. (2 Kgs. 4:26)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:02 am 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 7695
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Third Order Lay Carmelite
anawim wrote:
Fr. Mitch Pacwa mentioned that the first time anyone ever said that the miracle was the miracle of generosity, was in 1814, but he didn't mention who proposed that idea.

Anyone able to fill in the missing info?


I don't know what was said about that in 18l4, but I do remember when told about the "Jesus Seminar" that it appears that no good came out of it. It was the "Historical Critical Method". It was in the 50's.

Theologians asked Pope Pius XII can we go? The pope answered yes, if you glean the truth and do not make what they say the norm.

Unfortunately, they made it the norm according to the tape I listened to.

If I remember correctly John Dominic Crossan was at the head of this Jesus Seminar? It is my understanding that he did not believe in the Resurrection of Our Lord.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:18 am 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76073
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Dorothy B. wrote:
anawim wrote:
Fr. Mitch Pacwa mentioned that the first time anyone ever said that the miracle was the miracle of generosity, was in 1814, but he didn't mention who proposed that idea.

Anyone able to fill in the missing info?


I don't know what was said about that in 18l4, but I do remember when told about the "Jesus Seminar" that it appears that no good came out of it. It was the "Historical-Critical Method". It was in the 50's.



The Jesus Seminar was formed in the 1980's and was most prominent during the 1990's and continued working until 2005 when founder Robert Funk died. The Historical-critical method goes back to the 19th century and was not a creation of the Jesus Seminar.

The idea that the 'miracle' of the loves and fishes was that Jesus convinced everyone to share goes back much further than the Jesus Seminar. The first place I saw it was in William Barclay's 17 volume commentary on the New Testament, which were published in the 1960's, and which, sadly, I have seen in more than one library at a Catholic church. Barclay was a liberal theologian and a universalist, his commentaries deny pretty much all the miracles of the gospels. But Barclay was not the originator of the idea, which goes back much further.

How much further the idea goes, I don't know, but it does definitely sound like something that would date from the rationalist writers of the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

There was a time when the way that skeptics denied the miraculous in the gospels was to try to come up with a naturalistic explanation for it. For example, they claimed that Jesus never died on the cross, he merely revived, and the disciples mistakenly thought it was a resurrection. They also argued that when Jesus walked on the water, there was actually a rock or an atoll that he was standing on which the disciples couldn't see. This method of interpretation fell out of favor because frankly, it is absurd. Modern skeptics take the much more reasonable (if still not really defensible) approach of simply claiming that the gospels are filled with lies. It is more reasonable to say that someone lied about a miracle than to try to come up with a natural explanation for it.

Quote:
If I remember correctly John Dominic Crossan was at the head of this Jesus Seminar? It is my understanding that he did not believe in the Resurrection of Our Lord.


There was no 'head' of the Jesus Seminar, John Dominic Crossan was a member, yes, but the one who put the Jesus Seminar together was Robert Funk, who died in 2005, which led the Jesus Seminar, which had already been inactive for years at that point, to formally disband.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:20 am 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76073
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
anawim wrote:
Fr. Mitch Pacwa mentioned that the first time anyone ever said that the miracle was the miracle of generosity, was in 1814, but he didn't mention who proposed that idea.

Anyone able to fill in the missing info?
'

Have you tried simply emailing Fr. Pacwa to ask him?

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:40 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:23 am
Posts: 19259
Location: NYC area
Religion: Catholic
Doom wrote:
anawim wrote:
Fr. Mitch Pacwa mentioned that the first time anyone ever said that the miracle was the miracle of generosity, was in 1814, but he didn't mention who proposed that idea.

Anyone able to fill in the missing info?
'

Have you tried simply emailing Fr. Pacwa to ask him?


Even if I had his e-mail address, my experience with people like that is they almost never answer, due to the sheer volume of mail they get.

_________________
A modern day Shunamite woman. (2 Kgs. 4:26)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:56 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81322
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
He might have peeps to answer for him.

It could be any one of a number of people; that was the era when skepticism on the truth of Scripture began to rise, with "explanations" like this as a stop-gap to prevent the whole thing from leaking away.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Feeding of the multitude
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:30 pm 
Offline
Handmaids of the Lord
Handmaids of the Lord
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:47 am
Posts: 7695
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Third Order Lay Carmelite
Doom wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
anawim wrote:
Fr. Mitch Pacwa mentioned that the first time anyone ever said that the miracle was the miracle of generosity, was in 1814, but he didn't mention who proposed that idea.

Anyone able to fill in the missing info?


I don't know what was said about that in 18l4, but I do remember when told about the "Jesus Seminar" that it appears that no good came out of it. It was the "Historical-Critical Method". It was in the 50's.



The Jesus Seminar was formed in the 1980's and was most prominent during the 1990's and continued working until 2005 when founder Robert Funk died. The Historical-critical method goes back to the 19th century and was not a creation of the Jesus Seminar.

The idea that the 'miracle' of the loves and fishes was that Jesus convinced everyone to share goes back much further than the Jesus Seminar. The first place I saw it was in William Barclay's 17 volume commentary on the New Testament, which were published in the 1960's, and which, sadly, I have seen in more than one library at a Catholic church. Barclay was a liberal theologian and a universalist, his commentaries deny pretty much all the miracles of the gospels. But Barclay was not the originator of the idea, which goes back much further.

How much further the idea goes, I don't know, but it does definitely sound like something that would date from the rationalist writers of the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

There was a time when the way that skeptics denied the miraculous in the gospels was to try to come up with a naturalistic explanation for it. For example, they claimed that Jesus never died on the cross, he merely revived, and the disciples mistakenly thought it was a resurrection. They also argued that when Jesus walked on the water, there was actually a rock or an atoll that he was standing on which the disciples couldn't see. This method of interpretation fell out of favor because frankly, it is absurd. Modern skeptics take the much more reasonable (if still not really defensible) approach of simply claiming that the gospels are filled with lies. It is more reasonable to say that someone lied about a miracle than to try to come up with a natural explanation for it.

Quote:
If I remember correctly John Dominic Crossan was at the head of this Jesus Seminar? It is my understanding that he did not believe in the Resurrection of Our Lord.


There was no 'head' of the Jesus Seminar, John Dominic Crossan was a member, yes, but the one who put the Jesus Seminar together was Robert Funk, who died in 2005, which led the Jesus Seminar, which had already been inactive for years at that point, to formally disband.


Thanks for the corrections. That's what happens when I think I remember facts.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 9 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: