Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 17 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:07 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:36 am
Posts: 211
Religion: Catholic
I am reading a book from a noted theologian apologist who states that God, after the fall of Adam, assured him that not until the right relationship between the human race and God was reestablished could anyone, any individual, enter Heaven.

I've looked for a bible verse containing such a message from God to Adam and cannot locate it.

Is it possible one of you folks may know such a verse, or possibly explain in a relational verse what I am missing? I would greatly appreciate a hand in this dilemma of mine.

thanks so much in advance.

_________________
The truth of the Real Presence "cannot be apprehended by the senses but only by faith which relies on divine authority"
(St. Thomas Aquinas)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:04 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81299
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I would be curious to know exactly what the theologians said, because there is no such verse. It is true (Enoch and Elijah notwithstanding) that no one could enter Heaven until Christ opened the way.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:39 am 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:33 am
Posts: 3847
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I would be curious to know exactly what the theologians said, because there is no such verse. It is true (Enoch and Elijah notwithstanding) that no one could enter Heaven until Christ opened the way.


Which makes me wonder, were Enoch and Elijah preserved or otherwise cleansed from original sin?

_________________
"So mercifully blessed to be free from the ravages of intelligence." - Taken from Time Bandits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:50 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81299
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
No. The most common hypothesis is that they were not taken into heaven proper..

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:34 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:36 am
Posts: 211
Religion: Catholic
It was Frank Sheed in his book A Map of LIfe, page 43 ... paragraph follows;

"And, be it repeated, heaven was closed to man. This is something different from having lost "Supernatural" Life For an individual might, by God,s grace, regain the Supernatural Life; and yet because he was a member of a fallen race he could not enter heaven. Man is not simply an individual, he is a member of a community. And while the only great human community in existence was Fallen Humanity - to which as a race heaven is closed - the individual however holy, was debarred from heaven. Not till the right relation between God and the human race was reestablished ( as God had promised Adam it would be one day ) could the individual member of the race enter heaven."

I have a world of respect for Mr. Sheed, Father, and as he usually will accompany a verse to illuminate his thoughts, and as he did not on this occasion I was in hopes there were something I missed or perhaps something said later in an OT or NT verse if not getting these words verbatim but/or perhaps linking in some other way to the OP.

It's not the end of the world but because I have looked and not found now it is a bone of contention I wish the resolve.

_________________
The truth of the Real Presence "cannot be apprehended by the senses but only by faith which relies on divine authority"
(St. Thomas Aquinas)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:40 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76073
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Frank Sheed was an apologist, and a smart one, but he was not a theologian.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:53 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81299
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I think you've misread Sheed. He said that God promised that the relationship would be restored, which He did, though He was speaking directly to the serpent at the time (Gen. 3:25).

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:08 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:36 am
Posts: 211
Religion: Catholic
Father, what I am attempting to do here is “look back” on the type connotation of Jesus to Adam that is easily seen from historic retrospect. I wanted to see if Adam actually had the chance to see this typological comparison by “looking forward” in history (time) by the Word of God in historic biblical verse .

If you are saying that Adam would have understood that the relationship for the race of man would some day be restored to God through the conversation God had with the serpent (of which Adam certainly would have been within ear shot of hearing since he was an integral part of that conversation Gen 3:15), then I guess that’s as close as I will get to my hope for Adam’s relief of knowing his mistake of sin, although ongoing for all future generation (except of course the Blessed Virgin Mary) would inevitably be forgiven for all and the restoration of the relationship to Supernatural Life he had, so fully, would be a return to the eternal blessing he once enjoyed, lost, and would be reclaimed for all by Jesus.

Perhaps I have misread Mr. Sheen’s  ( as God had promised Adam it would be one day ) but it did seem he was conveying a specific verse (as would have been my fondest desire) where God was speaking a promise directly to Adam.





And Doom, I must respectfully disagree. If, by even the barest bones of definition of a theologian, :one who studies religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world Frank Sheed is eminently qualified to represent that definition. No, he’s not an Augustine Aquinas or Jerome, but his published works (Theology for Beginners, A Map of Life, Theology and Sanity) etc... are defined by his study of God to /and for man’s relationship. It is his scriptural backyard, where he reached for all his apologetical fervor’s response.

_________________
The truth of the Real Presence "cannot be apprehended by the senses but only by faith which relies on divine authority"
(St. Thomas Aquinas)


Last edited by Essential Sacrifice on Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:24 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81299
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I am pretty sure that Sheed was speaking of the Protoevangelium in general, not something addressed specifically to Adam.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:42 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:36 am
Posts: 211
Religion: Catholic
I am pretty sure that Sheed was speaking of the Protoevangelium in general, not something addressed specifically to Adam.

thank you Father, as clear as a bell ... and although I don't get the verse I had hoped for, I did get a feel good for the relief of Adam knowing his mistake, it's ongoing historical difficulty for his race but eventual righting of his original wrong.

From the Protoevangelium

Dr. Sofia Cavalletti comments that there are two interesting if not unique occurrences during the adjudication part of the narrative in Genesis 3:14-19. God directly curses the serpent only; this occurs nowhere else in the Bible. But God only punishes the man and woman. And the gift of mitigation by God for the man and woman occurs during the punishment of the serpent. There is a prophetic sense to the passage in Genesis 3:15, called the Protoevangelium, the first proclamation of the Good News: for, during the punishment of the serpent, God refers to the future, that there will be one "who will crush the head of the serpent." There is hope for the human race! 12

Even so, God showed mercy in Genesis 3:15 when he speaks of someone in the future who will "crush the head of the serpent." This is a sign of God's love for his creation; in spite of man's disobedience, he gave mankind hope for the future

I need to read more and speak less ... so... off to the Protoevangelium, thanks again.

_________________
The truth of the Real Presence "cannot be apprehended by the senses but only by faith which relies on divine authority"
(St. Thomas Aquinas)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:49 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:37 pm
Posts: 6143
Location: Bergen, Norway
Religion: High Church Lutheran
Church Affiliations: Church of Norway
Essential Sacrifice wrote:
And Doom, I must respectfully disagree. If, by even the barest bones of definition of a theologian, :one who studies religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world Frank Sheed is eminently qualified to represent that definition. No, he’s not an Augustine Aquinas or Jerome, but his published works (Theology for Beginners, A Map of Life, Theology and Sanity) etc... are defined by his study of God to /and for man’s relationship. It is his scriptural backyard, where he reached for all his apologetical fervor’s response.
But was not trained as a theologian. He was trained as a lawyer.

_________________
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

“Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt.” — Paul Tillich

http://katolikken.wordpress.com/
English texts: http://katolikken.wordpress.com/tag/english-texts-2/

http://www.facebook.com/kjetilkringlebotten

http://twitter.com/katolikken

http://thecatholic.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:56 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:36 am
Posts: 211
Religion: Catholic
But was not trained as a theologian. He was trained as a lawyer.

Lincoln too was trained as a lawyer ... does that mean he could not be a President?

In any case, Sheed's training as a lawyer neither stopped him from apologetics or theological pursuit. In point of fact, it probably helped.

_________________
The truth of the Real Presence "cannot be apprehended by the senses but only by faith which relies on divine authority"
(St. Thomas Aquinas)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:56 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76073
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
Essential Sacrifice wrote:
But was not trained as a theologian. He was trained as a lawyer.

Lincoln too was trained as a lawyer ... does that mean he could not be a President?



Most presidents were lawyers, I don't understand your analogy. Frank Sheed was well read and very intelligent, but he had no formal training or education in theology and was not an academic. He was an amateur. At best, he was an armchair theologian, which is not the same thing at all.

I've read quite a bit of theology, but I would never call myself a theologian. I've read lots of works of Bible scholarship, but I would never call myself a Bible scholar. I've read lots of works of history, but I would never call myself a historian.

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:24 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5072
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Essential Sacrifice wrote:
But was not trained as a theologian. He was trained as a lawyer.

Lincoln too was trained as a lawyer ... does that mean he could not be a President?

In any case, Sheed's training as a lawyer neither stopped him from apologetics or theological pursuit. In point of fact, it probably helped.

Law is a different subject than theology. Not only is the content different, but the methodology of inquiry is different as well. Being a skilled lawyer would certainly give you advantages that a blue collar worker wouldn't have, but you can't equate the two.

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:55 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:36 am
Posts: 211
Religion: Catholic
Ok you guys, look, my remarks of Mr. Sheed being a theologian are well founded, not just thoughts off the top of my head. (a theologian,:one who studies religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world ) This is the definition I used and consider a good representation of that discipline. “Training” comes in many forms. He was and is considered a “lay theologian” and wrote for better than 60 years of the Catholic faith and in particular man’s relationship to God and God’s to man. See his books Theology and Sanity, A Map of Life, Theology for Beginners and To Know Christ Jesus, among others.

Formal training is no more a prerequisite to becoming a theologian than being a lawyer is a requirement to becoming a president. That being said, formal education aside, it’s almost unbelievable to think, after so much learning and so many years of theoligical emphasis that you would say he has no educational experience. It’s no wonder you didn’t get my analogy Doom, it has nothing to do with lawyers becoming presidents … it has everything to do with lawyers can do more, be eminently more successful than just being lawyers.

To say he was trained as a lawyer but not as a theologian does not dismiss his ability to a theologically strong philosophical knowledge, and a comprehensive grasp of Catholic doctrine, instructing those who listened/read. Yes he was an amazing apologist, but almost exclusively because he knew his theological, philosophical subject matter so well and could immediately bring it to bare.

To say he was not an academic after finishing college, graduating law school, writing a dozen books on the subject of theology, co-writing another half dozen with his wife Maisie. Instituting a publishing company for himself and the likes of GK Chesterton, Claire Booth Luce, Evelyn Waugh, Ronald Knox, Hilaire Belloc and Hugh Pope as his literary customers is simply ignorant of his work, or ignorant of the meaning of an academic: (Of or relating to studies that rely on reading and involve abstract thought rather than being primarily practicalor technical. Relating to scholarly performance).


Were you aware In 1957 he received a doctorate of Sacred Theology honoris causa authorized by the Sacred Congregation of Seminaries and Universities in Rome?
Apparently our church deemed and awarded his theological expertise rather handsomely, for an “arm chair, amateur” theologian. IMO, in the eyes of the Catholic church, this rightly qualifies and recognizes him in distinguished company with any more traditionally trained theologian.

Does this sound like a man who is unfamiliar with theology and it’s implications for the human race?

Quote:
Religion is the act of man — the whole man, soul and body. It is not the act of the soul only, for man is not only soul . . . The supernatural does not ignore the natural or substitute something else for it. It is built upon or built into the natural. Sanctifying grace does not provide us with a new soul; it enters into the soul we already have. Nor does it give the soul new faculties but elevates the faculties that are already there, giving intellect and will new powers of operation. God-as-Sanctifier does not destroy or bypass the work of God-as-Creator. What God has created, God sanctifies. (Theology and Sanity, 300-301).
http://www.praiseandworship.info/wp-con ... -Sheed.pdf


In the words of Carl Olson’s biographical essay on Sheed,

If we are able to better comprehend and communicate his vital truth, we will be doing our part to demonstrate that true theology and mental sanity go hand-in-hand, as the great Frank Sheed explained so well.

Have you read a book from Sheed? If not, you should. I would start with Theology for Beginners, no matter how well you believe your current theology is set.
Considered also one of Frank Sheed's best books, A Map of Life which is regarded as one of the best and most popular short summaries of the Catholic faith ever written.

Then you will understand.

_________________
The truth of the Real Presence "cannot be apprehended by the senses but only by faith which relies on divine authority"
(St. Thomas Aquinas)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:57 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:36 am
Posts: 211
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Law is a different subject than theology. Not only is the content different, but the methodology of inquiry is different as well. Being a skilled lawyer would certainly give you advantages that a blue collar worker wouldn't have, but you can't equate the two.


Yes Jack I am aware of the different subject matter involved here, but I did not equate lawyerism to theology, only that being a lawyer does not preclude you from another occupation.

_________________
The truth of the Real Presence "cannot be apprehended by the senses but only by faith which relies on divine authority"
(St. Thomas Aquinas)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From God to Adam to Jesus
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:02 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81299
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
The caution is real; I have read another theology book by a different lawyer who said flat out that he was qualified to write it because as an attorney he was qualified to read words and understand their meaning, or some such thing. He then proceeded to make a complete hash of his subject material.

But Sheed did know his theology. He wasn't and didn't claim to be a great innovator in theology; his skill was in absorbing what was already out there and expressing it in easy-to-understand ways.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 17 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Jump to: