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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:45 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
beng wrote:

Btw, I said that it's Steve Ray who has moral certainty about his parents. This moral certainty is not an absolute one, so he could be wrong.



How can you know that? It sounds like you are defining his certainty to fit your certainty.



I know it because he's a well catechized Catholic and should know better to not have absolute certainty (since Trent anathemized such certainty, so it's a defind dogma).


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:04 pm 
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beng wrote:
(since Trent anathemized such certainty, so it's a defind dogma).


That could be handy, do you know which canon this was?

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Session VI, canon 16: If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

Edit because I originally gave the wrong session.

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Last edited by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:14 pm 
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In other words, if I know that I'm saved, I know I'm not saved. If I want to know I'm saved, I have to know I might not be saved. Then I can know that I can't know that I am saved so that I know I'm saved, in which case, I would not be saved, but if I knew that, I might know that I might know. So long as I know that I don't know it. ::):

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:24 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:33 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Session IX, canon 16: If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.



Is there a scripture reference ?

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:05 am 
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In the canon? No. Is there Scriptural reason to believe it is true? I'm sure someone has already been over that with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:13 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Session IX, canon 16: If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.



Is there a scripture reference ?

I don't understand why it would be worth an anathema, but if you are an amillennialist or hold in any form or fashion whatsoever that the status of your walk with Christ at the time of death has bearing on your salvation, then you certainly do have to say, at a minimum, that it is impossible to say that you know you are saved. It's so hard to get OSASers who also believe in the final perseverance of the saints to get this. They tend to think that because they believe they are saved and because God guarantees their preservation in faith and good works that they therefore can be absolutely certain that they will persevere until the end and be saved. And, of course, if one of their members fall away, then regardless of how convinced they and that person was that their faith was genuine, they just claim that was proof they were never saved to begin with. Damn the logical contradiction in their own thinking, who needs logical consistency when you have tradition, right? Arminians are usually much more open to the fact that they have no real assurance of salvation, as they positively believe you can lose your salvation and so have no supposed guarantee that they are going to continue in faith and good works. What frustrates me especially about my Baptistically oriented friends is they can't see that despite their claims to believe OSAS, that they, Arminians, and Catholics all believe pretty much exactly the same thing on this subject: namely, that if at some point in your life you renounce your faith in word and/or deed and die in such a state, that you go to Hell. In other words, it's the state of one's soul at the moment of death that counts as to where you will spend eternity. On this count, everyone agrees. They just disagree on how they get there.

There are only two groups of people who don't fit into that camp. Free gracers like myself are are absolutely anathematized by this canon and universalists, who would likewise be anathematized. No, the only way to have a hope of salvation, according to this canon, is to doubt your salvation. To me it's one of the many absolutely absurd things we're asked to believe on the authority of the magisterium and its as get as evidence as any that they aren't the infallible bunch they think they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Session VI, canon 16: If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

Edit because I originally gave the wrong session.


How does that correlate with this?:

Baltimore Catechism :
Q. Why did God make you? A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.


IOW:
How can one simultaneously be purposed to know and not know?

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:23 pm 
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theJack wrote:
In other words, if I know that I'm saved, I know I'm not saved. If I want to know I'm saved, I have to know I might not be saved. Then I can know that I can't know that I am saved so that I know I'm saved, in which case, I would not be saved, but if I knew that, I might know that I might know. So long as I know that I don't know it. ::):


I found that in every culture from every race there's this wise saying, not always in this word but the spirit is the same, that goes: "knowing that you don't know is a step closer to wisdom than not knowing that you don't know."


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:35 pm 
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theJack wrote:
No, the only way to have a hope of salvation, according to this canon, is to doubt your salvation. To me it's one of the many absolutely absurd things we're asked to believe on the authority of the magisterium and its as get as evidence as any that they aren't the infallible bunch they think they are.


If the fact is that man can not know absolutely about their salvation, then it logically follows that believing an infallible magisterium is not absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:38 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Session VI, canon 16: If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

Edit because I originally gave the wrong session.


How does that correlate with this?:

Baltimore Catechism :
Q. Why did God make you? A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.


IOW:
How can one simultaneously be purposed to know and not know?


"to know God" =/= "to know that you're saved."


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Being a good Catholic is absolutely no guarantee of anything?

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The Jews in the OT got a way better deal.

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Last edited by EtcumSpiri22-0 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:51 am, edited 7 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:42 pm 
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beng wrote:
theJack wrote:
No, the only way to have a hope of salvation, according to this canon, is to doubt your salvation. To me it's one of the many absolutely absurd things we're asked to believe on the authority of the magisterium and its as get as evidence as any that they aren't the infallible bunch they think they are.


If the fact is that man can not know absolutely about their salvation, then it logically follows that believing an infallible magisterium is not absurd.


Following your logic: If the fact is that "man can not know absolutely about their salvation", then it logically follows, that the blind are infallibly leading the blind.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:00 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
One can fail to achieve one's purpose.


Clearly.
But that would have been true with or without facing a canon. ;).

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:50 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Being a good Catholic is absolutely no guarantee of anything?

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The Jews in the OT got a way better deal.


Says who? It is true that many of them think that just being a Jew is profitable for salvation. But what did Christ have to say about it? He, most famously IMO, said that He could make descendants of Abraham (ie. Jews) out of stones.

Neither the OT Jews or nowaday Jews are OSAS.


Last edited by beng on Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:53 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
beng wrote:

If the fact is that man can not know absolutely about their salvation, then it logically follows that believing an infallible magisterium is not absurd.


Following your logic: If the fact is that "man can not know absolutely about their salvation", then it logically follows, that the blind are infallibly leading the blind.


That doesn't logically follows.

For example, it is a fact that no one could understand the trinity. Now if the magisterium defines that to claim to fully understand the trinity is false, do you think the magisterium is in error?


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:45 am 
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beng wrote:
The case of St. Alphonse Ratisbonne proves that God can give the light of faith in one single instance.

St. Ratisbonne was a Jew who hated the Church. To make long story short, one time a light shone to him and he immediately understand the doctrine of original sin, Mary's motherhood etc.

Explain to me why God could not and should not do this to everyone at some time in their existence. Scripture states that God is love, therefore, the idea of God turning His back on any of His poor, dumb, sinful creatures seems completely out of sorts with the actions of love properly understood.

Btw, I said that it's Steve Ray who has moral certainty about his parents. This moral certainty is not an absolute one, so he could be wrong.

Most people who are not Catholics are probably lost, as in getting tortured in hell (I ain't sugar-coating me language).

So God allows heresies to flourish so that we ignorant beasts can be tortured forever? It would be more merciful of God if the second a heretical notion passed the lips of a heretic that the heretic be struck dead in order to save the souls of millions who would be deceived into eternal torment.


Question: Does God owe anything to His creatures by dint of their creation? If I create a new life by union with my wife, am I not obliged to care for and love that new life as a very part of me? If God moves with favor towards St. Ratisbonne in his hatred of the Church, then why not move with favor towards all mankind in a similar fashion? You cannot say there was something that merited God's grace, for that is a heretical statement. We do nothing to merit grace - ever. But why stop there? Why give St. Ratisbonne the grace to believe and not all others? To what good or purpose is it to torment men and women eternally. Does it somehow increase the glory of God, as the woeful Calvinists say, making God to be a beast whose lust for revenge is satiated by the suffering of poor, ignorant creatures?


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:49 am 
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theJack wrote:
In other words, if I know that I'm saved, I know I'm not saved. If I want to know I'm saved, I have to know I might not be saved. Then I can know that I can't know that I am saved so that I know I'm saved, in which case, I would not be saved, but if I knew that, I might know that I might know. So long as I know that I don't know it. ::):


Yeah, that and, of course, never mind Romans 5: 18-19 which states that the work of Christ has done the exact opposite of what the work of Adam did. In Adam, all were condemned to separation from God, in Christ, all are restored to union with God.

What that union is like in the next life we do not know. Orthodox thought is that all go to be with God - those who love God and have pursued Him in this life will find it to be a joy. The same presence of God, however, for the wicked and God-haters in this life, will be a torment and sorrow.

People throw the words "just" and "justice" around an awful lot without actually thinking through what they mean. If one man's sin separated all of mankind and Creation from God, without any input from us in this regard, then the only just thing is that the work of one man do exactly the opposite, bring all mankind that ever lived, along with Creation, back into union with God.


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