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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:29 pm 
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beng wrote:
Yes, infant who have not reach the age of reason deserve hell. This is the Christian Roman Catholic (corrected that for you) doctrine of original sin. If they don't deserve hell, there's no need to baptize them ASAP.


The reason they are baptized is to make them members of the covenant community - the Church - and to give them the Holy Spirit so that they are able to withstand temptation and the attacks of the evil one. This is the "new life" that St. Paul speaks of. What St. Paul does not speak of and what we do not accept in the East is Augustine's anthropological ideas on sin which led to the development of the concept of "Original Sin" as understood in the West. In the East, Original Sin is the corruption of the human nature so that man is more prone to sin. We do not accept the idea that we bear the sin of Adam and the corresponding guilt. In other words, men are only guilty of the sins that they commit, which means that until such time that a child comes to a full knowledge of good and evil and makes a deliberate, willing choice to sin, that child bears no personal guilt. And even then, in the purview of lex talionis justice of which God is the author and instigator for mankind so that we might understand true justice from raw revenge in our dealings with our fellow men, what sin is equal to a never-ending eternity in torments? Our God is better than such a pagan description of godhood.

And as far as apokatastasis, if this is heresy, I am in the company of some very good Early Fathers of the Church, such as Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Isaac of Ninevah, St. Maximos the Confessor. The Liturgical language of the East also uses similar language which is very hopeful, such as the beautiful Paschal Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:

"Enjoy ye all the feast of faith: Receive ye all the riches of loving-kindness. let no one bewail his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep for his iniquities, for pardon has shown forth from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen."


As one priest said of this homily: "If hell is overthrown and “not one dead” remains in the grave—if Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection of all who have fallen asleep, then the Paschal homily of St John the Golden Mouth permits me to hope and to preach that hope. If I were restricted to preaching the hope described above, I would do so with very great joy."


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:

And as far as apokatastasis, if this is heresy, I am in the company of some very good Early Fathers of the Church, such as Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Isaac of Ninevah, St. Maximos the Confessor. The Liturgical language of the East also uses similar language which is very hopeful, such as the beautiful Paschal Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:


Apokatastasis makes no sense to me when Scripture is overlaid.

One example come to mind immediately:
Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:55 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
Light of the East wrote:

And as far as apokatastasis, if this is heresy, I am in the company of some very good Early Fathers of the Church, such as Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Isaac of Ninevah, St. Maximos the Confessor. The Liturgical language of the East also uses similar language which is very hopeful, such as the beautiful Paschal Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom:


Apokatastasis makes no sense to me when Scripture is overlaid.

One example come to mind immediately:
Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


I don't want to derail this thread into a weed patch. If you want to have a discussion on apocatastasis, I would be glad to discuss in any thread you might start to that end.

I find it interesting that until Augustine and about the 4th century, this was rather widely taught. The reason I left Protestantism was because of what I read regarding the beliefs of the Early Fathers. Reading quotes about apocatastasis has made me go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......."


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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:34 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
... Then the men in the Magisterium can not guide anyone to salvation.


Is this an absolute statement you are making here?

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 Post subject: Re: Free Will and Pelagianism: Will Non-Catholics Go to Hea
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:03 am 
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Generally speaking I don't get the idea why good works-essentially loving God and loving others for His sake- would be confused with sacrificing animals or "earning" your way into heaven.

It may only seem mercenary I guess if you can't grasp the reality and beauty of the universal and ultimate good. Like a child at first having to do grammar doesn't understand the beauty and the good of Greek poetry, he only sees his grammar as a chore to get through. But eventually you get beyond that and grow enough to realize that the beauty of that poetry is the natural and direct result of that previous work.

Put in other words, working in my service trade in order to get a paycheck is not the natural consequence of my work, the natural consequence of my work is diagnosing the problem on a piece of equipment and fixing it. Getting paid a wage by my employer is at best secondary.

I can get paid a wage anywhere for all sorts of jobs. But my real Joy is in fixing that piece of equipment so that everyone can share in that good.

I don't believe that God loves me and will give Salvation because I've been to X amount of Masses or that I've said X amount of Rosary's or that I've helped X amount of poor people.

God loves me because of Who He Is. And therefore I love Him because of Who He Is, and I love others based upon that love which He poured out onto me.

Salvation is a natural consequence of that love. Which is why I can have a moral certainty of salvation(but not absolute certainty1Cor 4:4).

By loving God everything else just takes care of itself, including Salvation.


Faith alone without love, is a dead faith; Scripture is clear on this. So how someone can say that good works aren't necessary and that someone can have absolute certainty of salvation apart from works is grossly misconstruing what Scripture is saying.

I can get how on faith alone you can get the idea of Justification, sure. God's love is an absolutely free gift offered apart from anything that we do.

But justification and salvation are not the same thing.

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