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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:51 pm 
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The question might have been answered already. I didnt read every line.
That said.
Can a person not believe in the Immaculate Conception and be a Catholic? Or be considered a Catholic in good standing? Receive the Sacraments etc..

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Hence, if anyone shall dare — which God forbid! — to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Is that a no?

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:43 am 
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That's a "hell no."


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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:48 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Adam and Eve were able not to sin; Jesus is not able to sin. Catholic theologians are divided over which camp Mary falls into, with the majority holding for "not able," though of course Jesus is not able to sin because He is God, whereas Mary "merely" enjoys a gift of extraordinary grace (if she is indeed not able to sin).


Extraordinary grace like the blessed?

Aha! She had beatific vision!


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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:06 am 
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No.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:04 am 
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Pohle/Preuss wrote:
How are we to conceive the impeccability of the Blessed Virgin Mary? It is quite obvious that her impeccability must differ specifically from that proper to God and the God-man Jesus Christ. Hers is not a divine attribute, nor is it conditioned by or based upon a personal union of divinity with humanity. It cannot be a result of the beatific vision, because Mary during her sojourn on earth was a wayfarer like ourselves and did not enjoy beatitude. Comparing her impeccability to that of the angels and saints and to that of our first parents in Paradise, we may define it as an intermediate state between the two. It would be asserting too much to say that the Blessed Virgin was capable of committing sin like our first parents; and too little to assert that during her life-time she was incapable of sinning as the angels and saints of Heaven are now, in consequence of the beatific vision. In what, then, did her impeccability consist? We are probably not far from the truth when we assume that God gave her the gift of perfect perseverance as against mortal sin, and that of confirmation in grace as against venial sin. Together with her freedom from concupiscence these two graces may be regarded as the proximate cause of Mary’s impeccability.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:54 am 
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No?

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:30 pm 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
No?


One cannot be a Catholic in good standing if one denies the Immaculate Conception. Such a one cannot receive communion. Father quoted above the words following Pius IX's declaration of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. That's a strong level of condemnation given to someone who denies the Immaculate Conception.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:33 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
No?


One cannot be a Catholic in good standing if one denies the Immaculate Conception. Such a one cannot receive communion. Father quoted above the words following Pius IX's declaration of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. That's a strong level of condemnation given to someone who denies the Immaculate Conception.

Thanks for the clarification.
I intuitively understood as much but never understood the reasoning.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Oh, and to Ed (Light of the East)

A will that could only choose evil can be called as free in a limited sense. At the very least that depraved will is still free to chose variety of evil (either to smoke crack or have ecstasy) and it chooses the evil because that evil is perceived to be good.

However that depraved will is not "free" in the true sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:53 pm 
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If that immaculate conception is something fitting, rather than needed, why need it be dogma?

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:57 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
If that immaculate conception is something fitting, rather than needed, why need it be dogma?


Yeah, I wonder the same thing.
From my limited understanding I figure that it is the nesecerry foundation upon which all of the other qualities attributed to Mary necessarily must rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:29 pm 
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The Divine Motherhood of Mary is the foundation upon which all the other Marian dogmas rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:30 pm 
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Sabbath wrote:
If that immaculate conception is something fitting, rather than needed, why need it be dogma?

Because it's true.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:03 pm 
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"Is the incarnation necessary for salvation?"

No it's not.

"Then why is it a dogma?"

Because it's true.


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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:12 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Sabbath wrote:
If that immaculate conception is something fitting, rather than needed, why need it be dogma?

Because it's true.

But lots of things are true that are not dogma. So why this?

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Because it's true and significant.

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:47 pm 
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I assume "significant" means "significant enough to be needed to be dogma." In that case, you're just answering the question, "why does this truth need to be declared dogma" with "because it needed to be declared dogma."

Certainly you aren't saying all truths not declared dogma are not significant. So the question remains . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Philosophical Question on Free Will and Pelagianism
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:32 pm 
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No, I mean "not trivial," and therefore worthwhile to define solemnly if the Church sees fit.

There doesn't have to be a necessity for a doctrine to be defined--only an advantage to be gained. In this case, the advantages are a precise statement of what was already accepted in a less-precise fashion (the debate over the Immaculate Conception in general had been settled by the middle of the 17th Century) and a boost to Marian devotion. Since neither one of those is necessary, defining the doctrine wasn't either. But it was helpful.

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