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 Post subject: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:25 pm 
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According to Ott, these statements are de fide:
  • God is absolute goodness in Himself and in relation to others.
  • God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness.
  • God is absolute Benignity.
  • God is absolute Beauty.

He cites D1782 (old numbering), which is the first part of Dei Filius from Vatican I:
Quote:
The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church believes and acknowledges that there is one true and living God, creator and lord of heaven and earth, almighty, eternal, immeasurable, incomprehensible, infinite in will, understanding and every perfection. Since he is one, singular, completely simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, he must be declared to be in reality and in essence, distinct from the world, supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself which either exists or can be imagined.

Quote:
Sancta catholica apostolica Romana ecclesia credit et confitetur, unum esse Deum verum et vivum, creatorem ac Dominum caeli et terrae, omnipotentem, aeternum, immensum, incomprehensibilem, intellectu ac voluntate omnique perfectione infinitum; qui cum sit una singularis, simplex omnino et incommutabilis substantia spiritualis, praedicandus est re et essentia a mundo distinctus, in se et ex se beatissimus, et super omnia, quae praeter ipsum sunt et concipi possunt, ineffabiliter excelsus (can. 1-4).

Hic solus verus Deus bonitate sua et "omnipotenti virtute" non ad augendam suam beatitudinem nec ad acquirendam, sed ad manifestandam perfectionem suam per bona, quae creaturis impertitur, liberrimo consilio "simul ab initio temporis utramque de nihilo condidit creaturam, spiritualem et corporalem, angelicam videlicet et mundanam, ac deinde humanam quasi communem ex spiritu et corpore constitutam (Conc. Lateran. IV: cf D.800; infra can. 2 et 5).

I can't for the life of me see that any of those statements are in there except by implication in "infinite in ... every perfection." What am I missing?

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 Post subject: Re: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Perhaps he’s assuming the reader can deduce, through natural reason from the comments provided, the de fide statements?

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 Post subject: Re: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Perhaps he’s assuming the reader can deduce, through natural reason from the comments provided, the de fide statements?


De Fide means 'stated explicitly', there's another term he uses when he means 'not stated explicitly but can be inferred from stuff that is stated explicitly'.

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 Post subject: Re: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Sententia fidei proxima.

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 Post subject: Re: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:19 pm 
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I searched all the way through a slightly older copy of Denzinger (on archive.org, so I assume it cleared copyright checks). None of the appearances of "holy," "holiness," "sanctity," or "goodness" applied here.

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 Post subject: Re: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:15 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
According to Ott, these statements are de fide:
  • God is absolute goodness in Himself and in relation to others.
  • God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness.
  • God is absolute Benignity.
  • God is absolute Beauty.

He cites D1782 (old numbering), which is the first part of Dei Filius from Vatican I:
Quote:
The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church believes and acknowledges that there is one true and living God, creator and lord of heaven and earth, almighty, eternal, immeasurable, incomprehensible, infinite in will, understanding and every perfection. Since he is one, singular, completely simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, he must be declared to be in reality and in essence, distinct from the world, supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself which either exists or can be imagined.

Quote:
Sancta catholica apostolica Romana ecclesia credit et confitetur, unum esse Deum verum et vivum, creatorem ac Dominum caeli et terrae, omnipotentem, aeternum, immensum, incomprehensibilem, intellectu ac voluntate omnique perfectione infinitum; qui cum sit una singularis, simplex omnino et incommutabilis substantia spiritualis, praedicandus est re et essentia a mundo distinctus, in se et ex se beatissimus, et super omnia, quae praeter ipsum sunt et concipi possunt, ineffabiliter excelsus (can. 1-4).

Hic solus verus Deus bonitate sua et "omnipotenti virtute" non ad augendam suam beatitudinem nec ad acquirendam, sed ad manifestandam perfectionem suam per bona, quae creaturis impertitur, liberrimo consilio "simul ab initio temporis utramque de nihilo condidit creaturam, spiritualem et corporalem, angelicam videlicet et mundanam, ac deinde humanam quasi communem ex spiritu et corpore constitutam (Conc. Lateran. IV: cf D.800; infra can. 2 et 5).

I can't for the life of me see that any of those statements are in there except by implication in "infinite in ... every perfection." What am I missing?


The last sentence would seem to pertain to the first bullet point at least. But other than that, I agree with you - the passage quoted doesn't seem to reference any of the other bullet points except for possibly indirectly by asserting that He is "infinite in ... every perfection."

I would certainly agree that the first three bullet points are de fide, though - at the very least, by the universal approbation of the Fathers of the Church. [I could be wrong on that point, but I don't think I am.] The last bullet point also seems true, but I don't know if I could argue for it being de fide - at least not on the same grounds. I always found Ott's commentary on that particular statement to be somewhat lacking (though I certainly hold to the truth of the statement).

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 Post subject: Re: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:35 am 
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I don't see how even the first point is covered. Where is it?

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 Post subject: Re: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:08 am 
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I don't know how strict language you require for something to be explicitly stated, but saying that God is "supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself" seems, to me anyway, fairly equivalent to the first bullet point. I don't know that I'd call it a deduction in the sense of concluding to something new. Supreme happiness in one's self, if we understand what those terms actually mean, seems to be the same thing as saying absolute goodness in one's self. And if God is "inexpressibly loftier" than anything else, while the language may be a bit . . . lofty . . . again, that seems to be functionally equivalent to the "in relation to others part." But, again, maybe you need stricter language. I don't see the last three bullet points for sure except by deduction (which are, as far as I can tell, rather easy deductions given all the premises to work with plus a bit of other stuff that is knowable by reason). I'm curious how TC sees it, though.

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 Post subject: Re: God's Holiness and Goodness
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:13 pm 
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I agree with Joe (and Ott) that they are all de fide by constant and universal teaching if nothing else (though I'm not sure that Ockhamist voluntarism doesn't contradict the doctrine of God's goodness).

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