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 Post subject: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:33 pm 
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Here is the question for the forum.

Does Nostra Aetate #4 teach the complete opposite of the consistent teachings of the Catholic church and Scripture, regarding the 'jews' and the old law??

I will state my position, based upon evidence, why I think that it does, in the thread. Please keep in mind the church's teaching regarding meaning and expression, concerning doctrines. I say this because some people, in order to maintain their own personal beliefs, they will try to reinvent the wheel.

Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.”

Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (#7), Aug. 15, 1832: “… nothing of the things appointed ought to be diminished; nothing changed; nothing added; but they must be preserved both as regards expression and meaning.”

I think that the Catholic church and scripture speaks for itself. I believe the evidence is overwhelming, proving that Nostra Aetate #4 does contradict the consistent teachings of the Catholic church, regarding the 'jews' and the old law. Here is Nostra Aetate #4 and supporting evidence from john paul II and Ratzinger, as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Vatican II Declaration, Nostra Aetate (#4): “Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or cursed by God, as if such views followed from the holy scripture.”

Here is what Ratzinger had to say while under john paul II, as second man in charge.

“Cardinal” Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI), God and the World, 2000, pp. 150-151: “This is another of the paradoxes that the New Testament sets before us. On the one hand, their No to Christ brings the Israelites into conflict with the subsequent acts of God, but at the same time we know that they are assured of the faithfulness of God. They are not excluded from salvation, but they serve in a particular way, and thereby they stand within the patience of God, in which we, too, place our trust.”

Ratzinger says they serve in a particular way, which means they follow the old law. And by doing so, they are assured of the faithfulness of God, which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

It gets even worse, Ratzinger says that the old testament doesn't point to Jesus Christ.

“Cardinal” Joseph Ratzinger, God and the World, 2000, p. 209: “It is of course possible to read the Old Testament so that it is not directed toward Christ; it does not point quite unequivocally to Christ.

These quotes of Ratzinger, as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, under john paul II, are right in line with Nostra Aetate #4.

John paul II, in his catechism, says that the old covenant law has never been revoked.

‘John Paul II’, New Catechism of the Catholic Church, Pg. 34 paragraph 121: “… for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.http://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html#34

Here is the evidence of the consistent teaching of the Catholic church concerning the mosaic law, which serves to demonstrate the opposition and contradiction.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally.  Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation.  All, therefore, who after that time (the promulgation of the Gospel) observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.

Pope Benedict XIV, Ex Quo Primum (# 61): “The first consideration is that the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law were abrogated by the coming of Christ and that they can no longer be observed without sin after the promulgation of the Gospel.

Pope Benedict XIV, Ex Quo Primum (# 59), March 1, 1756: “However they are not attempting to observe the precepts of the old Law which as everybody knows have been revoked by the coming of Christ.”

Pope Pius XII (1943): “… the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished… Jesus made void the Law with its decrees… To such an extent, then… was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church… that, as our Lord expired, the mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom.  On the Cross then the Old Law died…” (Mystici Corporis #’s 29-30)

Here is the scriptural evidence regarding the old law. These cites fly right in the face of Nostra Aetate #4.

Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second. For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:

2 Corinthians 5:17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new.

Romans 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham, or to his seed, that he should be heir of the world; but through the justice of faith.

In fact Nostra Aetate #4 says that the jews are not rejected and that scripture does not say that they are rejected. But on the contrary, the jews, rejected Jesus, and so this is why they are rejected by God.

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the ancients and by the high priests, and the scribes, and be killed: and after three days rise again.

Matthew 27:25 And the whole people answering, said: His blood be upon us and our children.

Matthew 23:31-38 Wherefore you are witnesses against yourselves, that you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell? Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, your house shall be left to you, desolate.

Matthew 21:42-43 Jesus saith to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes. Therefore I say to you, that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.

Matthew 10:33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

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Ecclesiasticus 4:11-12 And thou shalt be as the obedient son of [the Holy Ghost] the most High, and he will have mercy on thee more than a mother. Wisdom inspireth life into her children, and protecteth them that seek after her, and will go before them in the way of justice.


Last edited by Marian Soldier on Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:06 am 
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Only the staff are allowed to post in red and green. :fyi: Please choose another color for your highlighting.

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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:26 am 
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And while you’re at it, MS, howzabout posting something you actually wrote for a change? Where I come from, plagiarism is the unpardonable sin. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:41 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
And while you’re at it, MS, howzabout posting something you actually wrote for a change? Where I come from, plagiarism is the unpardonable sin. :fyi:



You didn't cite any evidence, for your accusation of plagiarism against me?

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St. Louis De Montfort (+1710): “The more the Holy Ghost finds Mary in any soul, the more active and mighty He becomes in producing Jesus Christ in that soul, and that soul in Jesus Christ.

Ecclesiasticus 4:11-12 And thou shalt be as the obedient son of [the Holy Ghost] the most High, and he will have mercy on thee more than a mother. Wisdom inspireth life into her children, and protecteth them that seek after her, and will go before them in the way of justice.


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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:33 am 
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This isn’t a court of law. There’s no onus on me to provide evidence of anything. But even the Apostle Paul didn’t put out as much in so little time as you’ve spewed. And Board history is consistent in revealing that, whenever a n00b comes right out of the starting gate with a flood of verbal diarrhea, it originated elsewhere. The stench of copying and pasting permeates your posts. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:12 am 
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I think I need to remind you, Marian Soldier, that quotes or paraphrasing or reference to the Dimond brothers' writings (attributed or not) are not allowed here. Any future posts with that material in it will be deleted.

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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:28 am 
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"It gets even worse, Ratzinger says that the old testament doesn't point to Jesus Christ."

Actually, what he said was that the Jews could read it as not pointing to Jesus due to the obscurity of the text. He did not say that it doesn't point to a Messiah, it is that it doesn't point specifically to Jesus as the Messiah. Shame on you and the Dimond brothers for skewing the meaning of his words.

I'm not going into any more specifics of what you posted, because you are clearly gleaning from the "Most Holy Family Monastery", and that site is an abomination to true believers.

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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:05 am 
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Marian Soldier wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
And while you’re at it, MS, howzabout posting something you actually wrote for a change? Where I come from, plagiarism is the unpardonable sin. :fyi:



You didn't cite any evidence, for your accusation of plagiarism against me?

It's obvious you are quoting them. I found material from your post on their website. Verbatim.

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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Marian Soldier wrote:
Here is the question for the forum.

Does Nostra Aetate #4 teach the complete opposite of the consistent teachings of the Catholic church and Scripture, regarding the 'jews' and the old law??


And, what if it does?

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 Post subject: Re: NOSTRA AETATE #4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:40 pm 
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