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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:15 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
beng wrote:
The rule is, ya'll need to come up with a better analogy before criticizing beng's.
No, I have no desire to espouse heresy.


Then don't criticize mine. The same way you're not criticizing analogies in the bible or analogies made by saints.


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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:36 am 
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Your analogy conveys absolutely nothing correct about the Trinity. Nothing. The Persons do not take turns with the Divine Nature. The Divine Nature is not a thing independent of them that they control. What, exactly, positive or analogical knowledge does one gain from your analogy?

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:31 pm 
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To say "don't criticize my analogy until you come up with a better one" is ridiculous. The whole point everyone is trying to make to you right now is that there is no convenient analogy (yours included) in creation for explaining the Trinity. Every analogy is terrible.

The only one in history that has seemed to be somewhat helpful in explaining the Trinitarian relations is St. Augustine's psychological analogy based in the processions in every intellectual being of word and love. This is the best analogy. It still falls short because in created beings, the word and love are not persons and indeed are not even substances but accidents, whereas in God, Word and Love are subsistent relations and are thus Persons. Instead of trying to find an analogy, teach the doctrine of the Trinity - it is the closest we can get to an intellectual appreciation of the doctrine on this side of eternity short of mystical experiences.

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:03 pm 
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beng wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
beng wrote:
The rule is, ya'll need to come up with a better analogy before criticizing beng's.
No, I have no desire to espouse heresy.


Then don't criticize mine. The same way you're not criticizing analogies in the bible or analogies made by saints.
Of course we can criticize analogies made by saints. They aren't infallible. And please point me towards any alleged analogies of the Trinity in Scripture. I doubt you'll find any.

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:15 pm 
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So procedural question . . . at what point does promoting and actively defending heretical ideas become something for the apologetics forum as opposed to the lyceum? Or is it sufficient for potential readers to see that at every turn beng's analogy is shown to promote heresy (by the resident priest, no less) and therefore any potential harm to someone thinking it might be a valid idea could be ignored?

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Your analogy conveys absolutely nothing correct about the Trinity. Nothing. The Persons do not take turns with the Divine Nature. The Divine Nature is not a thing independent of them that they control. What, exactly, positive or analogical knowledge does one gain from your analogy?


And says who that three persons take turn controlling the robot?

That the divine nature is not independent of what they control can be fixed by saying that the three persons are stuck in the robot.

I already explain many post back what positive or analogival knowledge one gain from my analogy.


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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:36 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
To say "don't criticize my analogy until you come up with a better one" is ridiculous.


No it's not.

Quote:
The whole point everyone is trying to make to you right now is that there is no convenient analogy (yours included) in creation for explaining the Trinity. Every analogy is terrible.


What do you expect from an analogy? There are always flaws in analogy. But people don't stop making them, including the saints.

Quote:
The only one in history that has seemed to be somewhat helpful in explaining the Trinitarian relations is St. Augustine's psychological analogy based in the processions in every intellectual being of word and love. This is the best analogy. It still falls short because in created beings, the word and love are not persons and indeed are not even substances but accidents, whereas in God, Word and Love are subsistent relations and are thus Persons. Instead of trying to find an analogy, teach the doctrine of the Trinity - it is the closest we can get to an intellectual appreciation of the doctrine on this side of eternity short of mystical experiences.


You are playing by the rule. That's better. That analogy also fails to convey the "person"-ness (love and word are not person) of the trinity which makes it useless when dealing with muslim.


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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
beng wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
beng wrote:
The rule is, ya'll need to come up with a better analogy before criticizing beng's.
No, I have no desire to espouse heresy.


Then don't criticize mine. The same way you're not criticizing analogies in the bible or analogies made by saints.
Of course we can criticize analogies made by saints. They aren't infallible. And please point me towards any alleged analogies of the Trinity in Scripture. I doubt you'll find any.


Wait what? You don't know any analogy in scripture? There are tons. Just google "analogy in the bible." Christ as rock is one.


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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:40 pm 
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theJack wrote:
So procedural question . . . at what point does promoting and actively defending heretical ideas become something for the apologetics forum as opposed to the lyceum? Or is it sufficient for potential readers to see that at every turn beng's analogy is shown to promote heresy (by the resident priest, no less) and therefore any potential harm to someone thinking it might be a valid idea could be ignored?


Heretical?

Analogy is not perfect. It's the nature of an analogy.

Analogy are everywhere in the bible and writing of saints. So, if you deem them heretical....


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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:36 pm 
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beng wrote:
That the divine nature is not independent of what they control can be fixed by saying that the three persons are stuck in the robot.
That doesn't fix it. That's an accidental association, not a unity of substance.

Humor me and tell me again what the knowledge or insight is that this analogy provides.

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Last edited by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:37 pm 
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beng wrote:
theJack wrote:
So procedural question . . . at what point does promoting and actively defending heretical ideas become something for the apologetics forum as opposed to the lyceum? Or is it sufficient for potential readers to see that at every turn beng's analogy is shown to promote heresy (by the resident priest, no less) and therefore any potential harm to someone thinking it might be a valid idea could be ignored?


Heretical?

Analogy is not perfect. It's the nature of an analogy.

Analogy are everywhere in the bible and writing of saints. So, if you deem them heretical....

Analogies are not always heretical. This one tends that way, with no redeeming features.

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:31 am 
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beng wrote:
Wait what? You don't know any analogy in scripture? There are tons. Just google "analogy in the bible." Christ as rock is one.
No, there are plenty analogies in Scripture. But none of them are trinitarian analogies.

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
beng wrote:
That the divine nature is not independent of what they control can be fixed by saying that the three persons are stuck in the robot.
That doesn't fix it. That's an accidental association, not a unity of substance.


So be it. Analogy has flaws.

Quote:
Humor me and tell me again what the knowledge or insight is that this analogy provides.


viewtopic.php?p=2782800#p2782800


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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
beng wrote:
theJack wrote:
So procedural question . . . at what point does promoting and actively defending heretical ideas become something for the apologetics forum as opposed to the lyceum? Or is it sufficient for potential readers to see that at every turn beng's analogy is shown to promote heresy (by the resident priest, no less) and therefore any potential harm to someone thinking it might be a valid idea could be ignored?


Heretical?

Analogy is not perfect. It's the nature of an analogy.

Analogy are everywhere in the bible and writing of saints. So, if you deem them heretical....

Analogies are not always heretical. This one tends that way, with no redeeming features.


That Christ is rock is heretical because diamond is hardest among rocks.

And you're wrong. There are redeeming features.


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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
beng wrote:
Wait what? You don't know any analogy in scripture? There are tons. Just google "analogy in the bible." Christ as rock is one.
No, there are plenty analogies in Scripture. But none of them are trinitarian analogies.


So analogy is not off limits. Saints made trinitarian analogies.


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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:35 pm 
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beng wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
beng wrote:
Wait what? You don't know any analogy in scripture? There are tons. Just google "analogy in the bible." Christ as rock is one.
No, there are plenty analogies in Scripture. But none of them are trinitarian analogies.


So analogy is not off limits. Saints made trinitarian analogies.
That doesn't make them right. Those saints were sinners.

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:20 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
That doesn't make them right. Those saints were sinners.


True. Yet, the bulk of our theology is passed on through Tradition from such sinners. (Simply look at sources in the CCC.)

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:47 pm 
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beng wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
beng wrote:
Wait what? You don't know any analogy in scripture? There are tons. Just google "analogy in the bible." Christ as rock is one.
No, there are plenty analogies in Scripture. But none of them are trinitarian analogies.


So analogy is not off limits. Saints made trinitarian analogies.


Just out of curiosity, which ones are you thinking of? The "clover analogy" was not actually used by St. Patrick, so what are you referring to?

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 Post subject: Re: Trinity question
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:20 am 
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beng wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
beng wrote:
That the divine nature is not independent of what they control can be fixed by saying that the three persons are stuck in the robot.
That doesn't fix it. That's an accidental association, not a unity of substance.


So be it. Analogy has flaws.

Quote:
Humor me and tell me again what the knowledge or insight is that this analogy provides.


viewtopic.php?p=2782800#p2782800

Thank you. I will re-register my objections:

1) This analogy in no way helps anyone understand the unity of the Trinity because it presents an accidental unity, as noted in the quoted post above.

2) The analogy does no better in conveying the three-ness of Persons than the simple statement that God is Three distinct Persons does.

3) The way in which the Son is related to the divine Nature is in no way comparable to the way He relates to His human nature, yet this analogy make them the same.

4) Most fatally, the analogy is based on the divine nature's being something extrinsic to the persons, and so leads directly to a quaternity.

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