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 Post subject: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:16 pm 
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An acquaintance said that Jesus had not only two natures, but two spirits, human and divine. I countered that Jesus had both an Divine and Human nature. He agreed but said Jesus also had both a divine and human spirit or soul.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:37 pm 
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What, exactly, is a 'divine soul'?

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:41 pm 
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That's my question also.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
What, exactly, is a 'divine soul'?


I don't know. In the case of Jesus, His spirit is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.
What they were emphasizing is that a human being is a body and a soul; so, they say, he had a human body and human soul when he was conceived as well as well as being the Second person of the Trinity.
This doesn't seem right, that Jesus had a human soul, but I don't know how to counter the argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Don't counter it. Jesus does have a human soul.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:08 pm 
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IgnatiusOfAntioch wrote:
Closet Catholic wrote:
What, exactly, is a 'divine soul'?


I don't know. In the case of Jesus, His spirit is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.
What they were emphasizing is that a human being is a body and a soul; so, they say, he had a human body and human soul when he was conceived as well as well as being the Second person of the Trinity.
This doesn't seem right, that Jesus had a human soul, but I don't know how to counter the argument.
Why would you counter it? It is classical orthodoxy that Christ had a human soul. To deny it is the heresy of Apollinarism. Consider this, from the Chalcedonian Definition (emphasis added):

    Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He were parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:11 pm 
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I agree with Father.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:25 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Don't counter it. Jesus does have a human soul.


Thank you fatheer.

For future reference: CCC 471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.

Thank you all.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Some theologians, for instance J.P. Moreland and William Lane Craig, argue for a kind of Apollinarian Christology. See for instance their chapter on the Incarnation (pp.597-614) in Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview, and esp. pp.598-600, 608-610. I never really understood why they would propose this, as it has been condemned since the fourth century, until it dawned on me that their view – that the Logos, in assuming flesh, “brought to Christ’s animal nature just those properties that would serve to make it a complete human nature” (Philosophical Foundations, p.608) – follows from their view of God – which is essentially a kind of ‘theistic personalism.’

They deny classical theism, i.e. divine simplicity, and see God as essentially like us, at least when it comes to the ‘spiritual side.’ He is simply just ‘much better.’ See Philosophical Foundations, pp.524-526 and this blog post by Edward Feser (in addition to these).

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“Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt.” — Paul Tillich

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:57 am 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
Some theologians, for instance J.P. Moreland and William Lane Craig, argue for a kind of Apollinarian Christology.


I saw one of Craig's older video when he said that. I always thought that he'd come to some senses later on. Is he still holding to that? (ie. the second person of the Trinity is the soul of Christ)

Ahh, Dr. Craig, why won't you be Catholic? Please Lord, convert him.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:59 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Don't counter it. Jesus does have a human soul.


No. He should counter it. That's an error like Craig's. That is, the second person is the soul of Christ. This is wrong. Christ's soul is a human soul. The second person is Christ's person, not Christ's soul.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Divine and Human nature and human and divine soul
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:37 am 
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Read it again; you are saying what the OP's acquaintance was saying, and I was saying that the acquaintance is correct. So are you.

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