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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:05 am 
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Journeyman
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Also see:
http://www.onepeterfive.com/stockholm-s ... ePeterFive
Rebuilding Catholic Culture. Restoring Catholic Tradition.
Stockholm Syndrome at the CDF: Has Cardinal Müller Been Compromised?
Steve Skojec January 11, 2017


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Corporate Minion Moderator
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Nathan wrote:
I'm thinking this is gonna be an old fashion Battle of the Bishops.


Heaven help me, and I'm probably going to spend a lot of time in Purgatory for this, but I can't help but think of this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcLH7O-A5Qw

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formerly "ghall512"--Thanks for the idea, arkcatholic! :clap:


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:56 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Nathan wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
The problem is AL seems to explicitly reject the necessity of living as brother and sister in some cases. It keeps it as more ideal, but refer to another way.



As someone schooled in Catholic Moral Teaching, if the Divorce and Remarried were allowed communion, how would this effect other areas of Morality? i.e. Theology of the Body, etc.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:09 pm 
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King of Cool

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Henry VIII didn't get a divorce, he got an annulment. And, as I'm sure GKC would be happy to point out if I don't, many previous Catholic monarchs, in similar situations, got an annulment, and it appears that the only reason Henry VIII didn't was because of pressure from Holy Roman Emperor Charles V.


Last edited by Doom on Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Doom wrote:
Henry VIII didn't get a divorce, he got an annulment. And, as I'm sure GKC would be happy to point out if I don't, many previous Catholic monarchs, in similar situations, got an annulment, and it appears that the only reason Henry VIII was because of pressure from Holy Roman Emperor Charles V.



Complicated bit of history, but yes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Henry VIII didn't get a divorce, he got an invalid annulment from someone without the jurisdiction to judge the case.

Fixed that for you.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Henry VIII didn't get a divorce, he got an invalid annulment from someone without the jurisdiction to judge the case.

Fixed that for you.



Part of the complicated history can certainly be read that way, yes.

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Save that the sky grows darker yet
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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:58 pm 
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I like how the bookie deftly wades out of fights.

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Jack3 wrote:
I like how the bookie deftly wades out of fights.



The bookie knows history is complicated. Full of people and such.

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Save that the sky grows darker yet
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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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GKC wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
I like how the bookie deftly wades out of fights.



The bookie knows history is complicated. Full of people and such.

The bookie is no rookie.

_________________
Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:31 pm 
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Journeyman
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Pope Francis continues to display his erroneous ideas.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/hea ... ryid=30479
Pope visits Roman parish, distinguishes witness from proselytism
‘In response to another question, the Pope distinguished proselytism from witness. The former, which he cautioned against, consists in saying to a nonbeliever, “You must believe this, because, because, because,” and “explaining all things.” Instead, he said, Christians should witness with their lives, and when nonbelievers—prompted by the Holy Spirit—ask questions, at that point Christians should offer explanations.’

Pope Francis continues to display his erroneous ideas against helping others to Christ’s teaching and His Church.

Of course one doesn’t wait for questions – the real Catholic answers false statements made against Christ or His Church’s teaching which are so prevalent today – he doesn’t evade them as Pope Francis seems to want. It is just this sort of false silence that allows error to grow and to subvert the unwary.

Wise proselytism answers the attacks and objections which are so prevalent today, rather than allowing grave error to prevail without answer.

It is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth. Christ and His Church’s Scriptures tell us:
"Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly." (Jn 7:24).
"Test everything: retain what is good." (1Thess 5:21).
"The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone." (1 Cor 2:15).
"I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed..." (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).
"I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying." (1 Cor 10:15).
"Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 Jn 4:1).
"I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth." (Rev 3:16).

The correction should be with the intention of helping others to see right from wrong and truth from falsehood and so assisting in the path to virtue.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:54 pm 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Jack3 wrote:
GKC wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
I like how the bookie deftly wades out of fights.



The bookie knows history is complicated. Full of people and such.

The bookie is no rookie.



:yes:

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Save that the sky grows darker yet
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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:29 pm 
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King of Cool

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Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Henry VIII didn't get a divorce, he got an invalid annulment from someone without the jurisdiction to judge the case.

Fixed that for you.


Okay, but that's not really the point that I was making.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Doom wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Henry VIII didn't get a divorce, he got an invalid annulment from someone without the jurisdiction to judge the case.

Fixed that for you.


Okay, but that's not really the point that I was making.



I know.

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:04 pm 
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King of Cool

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GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Henry VIII didn't get a divorce, he got an invalid annulment from someone without the jurisdiction to judge the case.

Fixed that for you.


Okay, but that's not really the point that I was making.



I know.


You're probably even aware that after Leo XIII opened up the Vatican archives to scholars one of the first things that was discovered was a draft of a papal bull granting an annulment to Henry VIII dating from the reign of Clement VII, a discovery which definitely tends to confirm that Henry was right when he complained that he had gotten a raw deal from the Pope.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:31 pm 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Doom wrote:
GKC wrote:
Doom wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Doom wrote:
Henry VIII didn't get a divorce, he got an invalid annulment from someone without the jurisdiction to judge the case.

Fixed that for you.


Okay, but that's not really the point that I was making.



I know.


You're probably even aware that after Leo XIII opened up the Vatican archives to scholars one of the first things that was discovered was a draft of a papal bull granting an annulment to Henry VIII dating from the reign of Clement VII, a discovery which definitely tends to confirm that Henry was right when he complained that he had gotten a raw deal from the Pope.



I know, yes.

But I don't account it a raw deal. It was the system working as it was intended, at the time, considering the intertwining of the secular and sacred, in society.

It's complicated.

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Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:42 am 
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I don't think he got a raw deal. And I think Catherine of Aragon would say the same.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:02 pm 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think he got a raw deal. And I think Catherine of Aragon would say the same.



Reasonable assumption.

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:15 pm 
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King of Cool

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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think he got a raw deal. And I think Catherine of Aragon would say the same.


He was denied an annulment that the Pope was prepared to grant him only because of political pressure from the emperor. How is that a fair process?


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Prodigal Son of Thunder
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Doom wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I don't think he got a raw deal. And I think Catherine of Aragon would say the same.


He was denied an annulment that the Pope was prepared to grant him only because of political pressure from the emperor. How is that a fair process?


It might not be fair as described (though even "political pressure" can be an instrument of truth, witting or no), but that your description is accurate is another question entirely. It could be that the Pope drew up the Bull and thought better of it on his own. Or it could be that he was convinced of an argument from a 3rd party. It need not have been solely due to political pressure.

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