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 Post subject: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:01 am 
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Has anyone read the letter sent to the Pope? Do you think this is necessary?

We discussed the issue of the divorced and remarried at a recent men's group at my Church. The Priest leading the group praised the Pope, and then basically explained that if a couple who lives in such a situation would have to first confess. Then live as Brother and Sister(No Sex) if they live together, especially if they are raising children. Then they should also go to a Parish where the parishioners wouldn't know about their past, so as not to scandalize others into thinking being divorced and remarried is acceptable, when receiving the Eucharist. I thought that last part was a bit extreme, but the priest is old school, which is why I like him:) Anyways, he said nothing in AL contradicted what he said. I'm assuming the four cardinals think differently, very differently.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:59 am 
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I've asked the oppressors mods to move this thread. As you realize, "Do you think this is necessary?" belongs to some debate forum.

Till the thread is so moved, I will content myself to saying Yes to both your opening questions.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:12 am 
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http://m.ncregister.com/51540/b#.WDgqsjV97IV

Text of the letter.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:56 pm 
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The problem is AL seems to explicitly reject the necessity of living as brother and sister in some cases. It keeps it as more ideal, but refer to another way.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:25 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
The problem is AL seems to explicitly reject the necessity of living as brother and sister in some cases. It keeps it as more ideal, but refer to another way.

Yes, fn 329 definitely implies that living as brother and sister is difficult and misquotes Gaudium et Spes to claim that children will be adversely affected if their parents don't have sexual relations.

I agree that AL doesn't have to be interpreted to contradict Familiaris Consortio, but Pope Francis should not be praised for creating such ambiguity and fomenting confusion among faithful Catholics.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:07 pm 
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That certain bishops are already interpreting it as against Church teaching and claiming the Pope's approval in doing so (without being corrected) isn't helping either.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:34 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Yes, fn 329 definitely implies that living as brother and sister is difficult and misquotes Gaudium et Spes to claim that children will be adversely affected if their parents don't have sexual relations.

Grant for the sake of argument that children are adversely affected if their parents don't have sexual relations (I can think of several ways that could be true). How does that have any impact on the question at all? Feels like a complete red herring to me. Put simply, sometimes doing what is right adversely affects us and those whom we love most. We aren't consequentialists, though, so I don't really see the point.

With that said, I am lazy and so didn't take the time to read Gaudium or AL before posting this, so perhaps it is related. If so, I'm more than happy to be educated on the matter.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:50 pm 
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Quote:
HalJordan Post subject: Re: The Dubia Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:07 pm:
“That certain bishops are already interpreting it as against Church teaching”
In fact the main challenge is from great cardinals. The reality is that if Pope Francis continues to prevaricate and ignore, they will consider a “formal correction”.

The four cardinals are examined in some detail and the Pope’s treatment revealed.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/who-a ... o-wrote-th

Pete Baklinski
Tue Nov 22, 2016 - 4:58 pm EST
* Updated: Who are these four cardinals who wrote the ‘dubia’ to the Pope?

Editor's Note: This story has been updated Nov. 23, 2016 to include Vatican posts as well as academic qualifications of the four cardinals.
(Last paragraph):
“While the animosity toward the four Cardinals coming from the Pope and his closest collaborators was expected, observers of the Vatican continue to be surprised at to what extent the character assassinations have gone. Despite the animosity, the Cardinals, who are not strangers to standing firm in the face of opposition, appear to be calmly proceeding with their course of action, indicating last week that should Francis refuse to answer their concerns, they would consider issuing a “formal correction” of the pope.”


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:02 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Yes, fn 329 definitely implies that living as brother and sister is difficult and misquotes Gaudium et Spes to claim that children will be adversely affected if their parents don't have sexual relations.

Grant for the sake of argument that children are adversely affected if their parents don't have sexual relations (I can think of several ways that could be true). How does that have any impact on the question at all? Feels like a complete red herring to me. Put simply, sometimes doing what is right adversely affects us and those whom we love most. We aren't consequentialists, though, so I don't really see the point.

With that said, I am lazy and so didn't take the time to read Gaudium or AL before posting this, so perhaps it is related. If so, I'm more than happy to be educated on the matter.


I think you're on the right track here. It doesn't. This is casuistry taken to absurd levels.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:17 pm 
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http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/card ... CwO0iOLTm1


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Interesting

Steve Ray posted this:

https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2016/1 ... l-silence/


From the article by Fr Mark A Pilon:

"The five dubia were very carefully and succinctly written and followed the traditional method of presentation of such questions to the Holy See."

"Well, now four cautious and conscientious churchmen have openly sought a solution to all this turmoil. Cardinal Burke suggested what might follow if the pope remains silent: “There is, in the Tradition of the Church, the practice of correction of the Roman Pontiff. It is something that is clearly quite rare. But if there is no response to these questions, then I would say that it would be a question of taking a formal act of correction of a serious error.”

This really would be quite awful, forcing Church leaders, priests, and lay people into taking sides – a kind of practical schism. Let’s pray it never comes to this. But to avoid such divisions and worse, Pope Francis will now have to do something."

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:13 pm 
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A formal public "correction" does not reasonably follow from the pope not responding to the Dubia (if he does not according to whatever timeframe the cardinals have.) There are either clearly serious errors in AL which need to be "corrected" or there is not. As far as I know, the Dubia is asking for "clarification". There is only need to clarify something that is ambiguous. You don't clarify what are clearly errors. So with Edward Pentin reporting that Cardinal Burke will make a public formal "correction" instead of a "clarification" of Church teaching if the pope will not respond to their request for "clarification" makes no sense. In other words, if the pope does not respond, the cardinals will not make a formal public "correction"; what follows is that they will neccesarily finish what they requested: they will make a formal public "clarification" of Catholic teaching regarding these topics in AL. The distinction between " clarification"and "correction" is needed because the consequences and what would follow within the Church after one or the other would be quite different.

The good news is that these cardinals will see this out to the end...they knew what they were getting themselves into.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:46 am 
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Quote:
LuxHominumErat: Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:13 am
The distinction between " clarification"and "correction" is needed because the consequences and what would follow within the Church after one or the other would be quite different.

The clarification request has been made twice.
Thus if the clarification is now not forthcoming, a ‘formal correction’ follows when such confusion prevails, as these topics have been formally taught by the Church as expressed by the Cardinals concerned.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-p ... their-duty
NOV. 24, 2016
Bishop Schneider: ‘Dubia’ Cardinals Are a Prophetic Voice and Doing Their Duty
Draws on historical precedent during Arian heresy and says the viciousness of their critics is aimed at "silencing the voice of truth".
Edward Pentin
Bishop Schneider’s key points are listed below:
• In the Dubia, the Cardinals have merely stated real facts in the life of the Church.
• The Four Cardinals only did their basic duty as bishops and cardinals, which consists in actively contributing so that the revelation transmitted through the Apostles might be guarded sacredly and might be faithfully interpreted.
• In making a public appeal to the Pope, bishops and cardinals should be moved by genuine collegial affection for the Successor of Peter and the Vicar of Christ on earth, following the teaching of Vatican Council II (cf. Lumen gentium, 22).
• One has to trust that Pope Francis will accept this public appeal of the Four Cardinals in the spirit of the Apostle Peter, when St Paul offered him a fraternal correction for the good of the whole Church.
• [Quoting St. Thomas Aquinas]: "When there is a danger for the faith, subjects are required to reprove their prelates, even publicly. Since Paul, who was subject to Peter, out of the danger of scandal, publicly reproved him. And Augustine comments: 'Peter himself gave an example to superiors by not disdaining to be corrected by his subjects when it occurred to them that he had departed from the right path'" (Summa theol., II-II, 33, 4c).
• The Pope speaks of a need for “open discussion of a number of doctrinal, moral, spiritual, and pastoral questions. The thinking of pastors and theologians, if faithful to the Church, honest, realistic and creative, will help us to achieve greater clarity.”
• The unusually violent and intolerant reactions on behalf of some bishops and cardinals against the calm and circumspect plea of the Four Cardinals [has caused] great astonishment.
• Such apodictic merciless judgments reveal not only intolerance, refusal of dialogue, and irrational rage, but demonstrate also a surrender to the impossibility of speaking the truth, a surrender to relativism in doctrine and practice, in faith and life.
• The above-mentioned clerical reaction against the prophetic voice of the Four Cardinals parades ultimately powerlessness before the eyes of the truth. Such a violent reaction has only one aim: to silence the voice of the truth, which is disturbing and annoying the apparently peaceful nebulous ambiguity of these clerical critics.
• The negative reactions to the public statement of the Four Cardinals resemble the general doctrinal confusion of the Arian crisis in the fourth century.
• The Four Cardinals with their prophetic voice demanding doctrinal and pastoral clarity have a great merit before their own conscience, before history, and before the innumerable simple faithful Catholics of our days, who are driven to the ecclesiastical periphery, because of their fidelity to Christ’s teaching about the indissolubility of marriage.
• Above all, the Four Cardinals have a great merit in the eyes of Christ. Because of their courageous voice, their names will shine brightly at the Last Judgment.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:30 am 
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Thomist wrote:
Quote:
LuxHominumErat: Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:13 am
The distinction between " clarification"and "correction" is needed because the consequences and what would follow within the Church after one or the other would be quite different.

The clarification request has been made twice.
Thus if the clarification is now not forthcoming, a ‘formal correction’ follows when such confusion prevails, as these topics have been formally taught by the Church as expressed by the Cardinals concerned.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-p ... their-duty
NOV. 24, 2016
Bishop Schneider: ‘Dubia’ Cardinals Are a Prophetic Voice and Doing Their Duty
Draws on historical precedent during Arian heresy and says the viciousness of their critics is aimed at "silencing the voice of truth".
Edward Pentin
Bishop Schneider’s key points are listed below:
• In the Dubia, the Cardinals have merely stated real facts in the life of the Church.
• The Four Cardinals only did their basic duty as bishops and cardinals, which consists in actively contributing so that the revelation transmitted through the Apostles might be guarded sacredly and might be faithfully interpreted.
• In making a public appeal to the Pope, bishops and cardinals should be moved by genuine collegial affection for the Successor of Peter and the Vicar of Christ on earth, following the teaching of Vatican Council II (cf. Lumen gentium, 22).
• One has to trust that Pope Francis will accept this public appeal of the Four Cardinals in the spirit of the Apostle Peter, when St Paul offered him a fraternal correction for the good of the whole Church.
• [Quoting St. Thomas Aquinas]: "When there is a danger for the faith, subjects are required to reprove their prelates, even publicly. Since Paul, who was subject to Peter, out of the danger of scandal, publicly reproved him. And Augustine comments: 'Peter himself gave an example to superiors by not disdaining to be corrected by his subjects when it occurred to them that he had departed from the right path'" (Summa theol., II-II, 33, 4c).
• The Pope speaks of a need for “open discussion of a number of doctrinal, moral, spiritual, and pastoral questions. The thinking of pastors and theologians, if faithful to the Church, honest, realistic and creative, will help us to achieve greater clarity.”
• The unusually violent and intolerant reactions on behalf of some bishops and cardinals against the calm and circumspect plea of the Four Cardinals [has caused] great astonishment.
• Such apodictic merciless judgments reveal not only intolerance, refusal of dialogue, and irrational rage, but demonstrate also a surrender to the impossibility of speaking the truth, a surrender to relativism in doctrine and practice, in faith and life.
• The above-mentioned clerical reaction against the prophetic voice of the Four Cardinals parades ultimately powerlessness before the eyes of the truth. Such a violent reaction has only one aim: to silence the voice of the truth, which is disturbing and annoying the apparently peaceful nebulous ambiguity of these clerical critics.
• The negative reactions to the public statement of the Four Cardinals resemble the general doctrinal confusion of the Arian crisis in the fourth century.
• The Four Cardinals with their prophetic voice demanding doctrinal and pastoral clarity have a great merit before their own conscience, before history, and before the innumerable simple faithful Catholics of our days, who are driven to the ecclesiastical periphery, because of their fidelity to Christ’s teaching about the indissolubility of marriage.
• Above all, the Four Cardinals have a great merit in the eyes of Christ. Because of their courageous voice, their names will shine brightly at the Last Judgment.


Im 100% certain you did not understand my point.

Not only that, but this entire post, starting from what was randomly quoted from my post to your personal unrelated response, to Pentins summarization of Bishop Schneider is incoherent.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:09 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
The problem is AL seems to explicitly reject the necessity of living as brother and sister in some cases. It keeps it as more ideal, but refer to another way.



As someone schooled in Catholic Moral Teaching, if the Divorce and Remarried were allowed communion, how would this effect other areas of Morality? i.e. Theology of the Body, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:14 pm 
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We've already seen how it's affected other areas of morality, with the bishops of Atlantic Canada calling for pastoral accompaniment (including the Sacraments) of those who wish to end their lives.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:31 am 
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Anyone know the latest?


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:26 pm 
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The Maike Hickson article, Liberation Theologian Boff: “Francis is One of Us” of December 26, 2016 makes disturbing reading. It commences:
On 25 December 2016 the Brazilian Leonardo Boff, one of the most prominent theorists and operatives of Latin American Liberation Theology, gave a candidly revealing and manifoldly informative interview to the German regional newspaper Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger. Due to his confident, if not presumptuous, openness, the 78-year-old Boff (b. 14 December 1938) speaks about several matters of moment which we otherwise would not so easily hear about.
See site: http://www.onepeterfive.com/about/


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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:45 am 
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Strider wrote:
Anyone know the latest?


http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/ ... ion-39095/

I'm thinking this is gonna be an old fashion Battle of the Bishops.

It's a shame, the Church's Moral Theology was the only one that I thought was pretty straight forward, especially when it came to purity.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dubia
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:51 am 
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Strider wrote:
Anyone know the latest?

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/ar ... 1432?eng=y

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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