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 Post subject: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:07 pm 
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I am wondering about Aquinas' arguments for the oneness of God and how to keep them from bleeding into (and undermining) the three persons of God.

"Again, it has been shown that God is absolutely perfect, lacking no perfection. If, then, there are many gods, there must be many such perfect beings. But this is impossible. For, if none of these perfect beings lacks some perfection, and does not have any admixture of imperfection, which is demanded for an absolutely perfect being, nothing will be given in which to distinguish the perfect beings from one another. It is impossible, therefore, that there be many gods." Summa Contra Gentiles 1:42

All persons of the Godhead are absolutely perfect. And yet, we are able to distinguish them. Therefore, I suspect the answer lies with the difference between God as a being and God as persons. What is the difference between persons and beings in this context?

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:10 pm 
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Beings are distinct in substance. The divine Persons are distinct only in relationship to each other.

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:22 pm 
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Cool! So is it correct to say the divine Persons are identical in substance? If it's not their substance that defines their relationship to one another then what is it?

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From the beginning, Christianity has understood itself as the religion of the Logos, as the religion according to reason...It has always defined men, all men without distinction, as creatures and images of God, proclaiming for them...the same dignity: to live a faith that comes from the Logos, from creative reason, and that, because of this, is also open to all that is truly rational.


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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:24 pm 
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"Consubtantial with the Father" = the identical substance.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Indeed. But does that mean the Holy Spirit is identical in substance to both? Do any of them have something that another does not?

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:38 pm 
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Quote:
does that mean the Holy Spirit is identical in substance to both?

Yes

Quote:
Do any of them have something that another does not?

No

The only thing whatsoever that distinguishes them is their relations. Nothing else.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:50 pm 
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God is Three in a circle. God is pi within a circle. He is triune.
(copyrighted)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi


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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:17 pm 
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What does God have to do with pi? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:54 pm 
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sunshine1 wrote:
God is Three in a circle. God is pi within a circle. He is triune.
(copyrighted)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi

Wikipedia is not copyrighted. Either start linking to original source material or stop saying things are copyrighted that aren’t.

BTW, most serious scholars refuse to acknowledge Wikipedia as a credible source. It’s great for a quick “gut check,” but if you want to be taken seriously, find another source.

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
BTW, most serious scholars refuse to acknowledge Wikipedia as a credible source. It’s great for a quick “gut check,” but if you want to be taken seriously, find another source. [/color]

That's what Wikipedia says (source): "Wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic writing or research." But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. . . .

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:02 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
sunshine1 wrote:
God is Three in a circle. God is pi within a circle. He is triune.
(copyrighted)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi

[color=#004000]Wikipedia is not copyrighted.


Yes, it is. Everything that is published, and yes, posting on a website IS a form of publication, is automatically copyrighted the moment it is written, one does not have to file for a copyright, copyrights are automatic.

Indeed, one doesn't even have to publish because works 'in progress' that have never been published, such as the half dozen or so different unfinished books that I have written, are automatically copyrighted the moment that they are created.

So if someone breaks into my OneDrive account and takes my barely begun 'History of the Reformation from 1200-1800' that I have been working one for the last 5 years but only have an outline and a couple chapters written, and publishes it without my authorization, it is a violation of my copyright.

Technically, this very post is copyrighted, which means that no one can reproduce on another website without my permission, except under the narrow 'Fair Use' exemption, such as if someone quoted it for the sake of critiquing my argument and responding to it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:02 am 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:54 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights



Ah, thank you, the articles are copyrighted, but the copyright is owned by the authors, not the website. What an odd system.

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Technically, this very post is copyrighted, which means that no one can reproduce on another website without my permission, except under the narrow 'Fair Use' exemption, such as if someone quoted it for the sake of critiquing my argument and responding to it.


Technically, your posts belong to this board.

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:15 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Mrs. Timmy wrote:
BTW, most serious scholars refuse to acknowledge Wikipedia as a credible source. It’s great for a quick “gut check,” but if you want to be taken seriously, find another source. [/color]

That's what Wikipedia says (source): "Wikipedia is not a reliable source for academic writing or research." But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. But since I can't trust Wikipedia, then I can't trust it when it tells me that it isn't trustworthy. Therefore, Wikipedia must be trustworthy. Except that would mean that it can be trusted when it tells me it can't be trusted. That must be why it's not trustworthy, and I know it isn't trustworthy because there's a Wikipedia article that says so. . . .


So clearly I cannot choose the wine...

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:23 pm 
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:laughhard

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:49 am 
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GKC wrote:
So clearly I cannot choose the wine...

Now that's funny.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:45 am 
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theJack wrote:
GKC wrote:
So clearly I cannot choose the wine...

Now that's funny.



Statements of veracity about statements of veracity seem to be tricky.

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 Post subject: Re: The Oneness of God and the Trinity
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:10 am 
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GKC wrote:
theJack wrote:
GKC wrote:
So clearly I cannot choose the wine...

Now that's funny.



Statements of veracity about statements of veracity seem to be tricky.

You don't say.

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