Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 4 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: 3 Loaves at Midnight: Orthodox Sacramental Initiation?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:02 am 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:26 pm
Posts: 1067
Location: Portland OR area
Religion: Catholic
I simply cannot get over the unbelievable reality that all loaves and fishes discourses perfectly mirror Catholic Sacramental theology in junction with Catholic theology on Christian division, not just what i have shared ad inifinitum, but now THE THREE LOAVES LENT AT MIDNIGHT. It is the capstone. But for reference, let us summarize:

It is absolutely appropriate for physical food to image spiritual food, hence, that the there are seven objects in each feeding story is a perfect metaphor for the sacraments.

The other case, of three loaves at midnight, perfectly images disciplinary variation: different time schedules (for Jews, time begins at sunset, for Romans, at midnight.) Hence, midnight is inappropriate for Jesus' time, yet the friend asks for three loaves as in, in Eastern Tradition, the beginning of the day of life has three loaves, the three sacraments of initiation.

The other stories are total overload:

five loaves, two fish:

Five sacraments require the priesthood and are lacked by heretics: Confession, Confirmation, Eucharist, Holy Orders, Unction. Only two remain for heretics: Baptism and Marriage. Too, two FISH. Fish are caught in the sea, a place of chaos. Protestants are ever in doctrinal chaos. They do not have the earth to grow barely to make loaves. The earth is, 1 Tim 3: 15, the pillar and GROUND of truth, which is Apostolic Succession and Tradition. Only with the stable foundation of the Episcopate and Tradition can Scripture be understood properly, and the fullness of the sacramental life dispensed. Five sacraments require the earth of Bishops and Tradition to grow barely in.

seven loaves, few fish:

As for seven loaves, few fish, the Orthodox, in mere schism, have the earth, or Apostolic Succession and Tradition. Therefore, they have all seven sacraments in validity, seven loaves. But they have a "few fish", in that what is settled dogmatically in Orthodoxy is LESS than in Catholicsm, relative to Catbholic belief. The Orthodox "waver a little in the water" and "debate" what Rome has claimed in the last millennium.

Finally, there are 5 Apostolic Sees. In the Great Schism, 4 of them broke away. In this land of the East, the land of 4 great Princes of Christendom, the primary separation of Christians, relative to Catholic teaching, has been schism, Catholics and Orthodox.

The land of the West retained only 1 Prince, PETER. However, relative to Catholic teaching, Peter assumes within his singular being the whole authority of Apostolicity He can define, if done freely and supremely from the chair, dogmas all by himself entirely without the consent of the other bishops. Hence, Peter is like all Apostles in himself, and is like the number 5.

And in his kingdom, the primary separation has been heresy, or Catholics and Protestants.

And this is absolutely amazing for a Catholic:

It was to ***4000*** that seven loaves and a few fish were fed [in the East, there are ***4*** Apostolic Princes, and the primary separation is SCHISM, seven loaves, few fish]

And it was to ***5000*** that 5 loaves and 2 fish were fed. So also, in Peter's Kingdom, the West, the kingdom of FULL Apostolicity (all ***5***Sees in one), the primary division has been HERESY, five loaves two fish.

And again,

Jews have a way to measure the day, and the Romans have another way. Jews start at sunset, Romans at midnight. Jesus is a Jew, so His timing is preferred by God. So the Roman time, while not wrong, places timing that is sometimes inappropriate. It is not appropriate to go to your friend at midnight and ask to be lent three loaves. Would be better at sunset.

The Catholic Church has a way of measuring liturgical time, and the Orthodox sometimes different. Neither is really right or wrong, but heaven perhaps prefers Peter's just as Joseph had a multicolored coat, or Judah was the king of the tribes, losing 10 of his 12 brothers in the North/South Schism, just as Peter lost all his other brothers in the East/West Schism.

Nevertheless, in a different liturgical dimension, not wrong, just different, Peter loans out three loaves to his beloved friend, the princes in the East, that the friend may feed his baby at the beginning of his day, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist.

I am charitably but seriously challenging if the Orthodox can give an alternate Sacramental interpretation that justifies their position? I am not being facetious, just challenging in all honesty.

Thank you for reading.

_________________
O, SAINT Kateri, Pray for us!
http://www.catholicmeditations.org
"Five have fallen. One is. And the other has not yet come...and the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 3 Loaves at Midnight: Orthodox Sacramental Initiation?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:03 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 9117
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
To the first part- Did the Evangelists have this in mind while writing the Holy Gospels?

The point you made about liturgical time and Joseph's coat- Can you explain it further?

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 3 Loaves at Midnight: Orthodox Sacramental Initiation?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:16 pm 
Offline
Journeyman
Journeyman
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:26 pm
Posts: 1067
Location: Portland OR area
Religion: Catholic
Jack3 wrote:
To the first part- Did the Evangelists have this in mind while writing the Holy Gospels?

The point you made about liturgical time and Joseph's coat- Can you explain it further?


well, later meanings that transcend the Sacred Author's intent can arise later.

Joseph, out of the twelve brothers, was favored.

Peter, out of the twelve, is favored. Hence, heaven will like Peter's way of doing things over the other brothers.

Hence, Roman order of Sacraments is liked by heaven more than Eastern Catholic or Orthodox order.

_________________
O, SAINT Kateri, Pray for us!
http://www.catholicmeditations.org
"Five have fallen. One is. And the other has not yet come...and the beast that was and is not, even he is the eighth..."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 3 Loaves at Midnight: Orthodox Sacramental Initiation?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:33 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 9117
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
spauline wrote:
Peter, out of the twelve, is favored. Hence, heaven will like Peter's way of doing things over the other brothers.

Hence, Roman order of Sacraments is liked by heaven more than Eastern Catholic or Orthodox order.

Peter was favoured and had authority over other Apostles. So, the his successor will have authority over other bishops.
That says nothing about rites. All rites approved by the Church are of equal dignity. This is stated, for example, in Orientalum Ecclesiarum, the Vatican II document about Eastern Catholic Churches; so you have to give assent.

A Latin theologian (St Thomas Aquinas ?) considers whether Confirmation or Eucharist should be given first. He compares Baptism to birth, Confirmation to growth and Eucharist to food consumtion. We eat after growing and grow after eating, so he concludes it's fine either way.

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 4 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


Jump to: