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 Post subject: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:38 am 
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On divorce as referenced by the Lord in Mathew 19:1-09

IN Matthew: 9 the Lord says unless one spouse is unfaithful, to divorce is to commit adultery.

To be unfaithful : 1. Not adhering to promises, obligations, or allegiances; disloyal.
2.
a. Not true or constant to one's sexual partner.
b. Not true to one's spouse; guilty of adultery.
3. Not justly representing or reflecting the original; inaccurate.
4. Obsolete Deficient in or lacking religious faith; unbelieving.

Remember the Lord offered it is a challenge to accept and to understand. Not many human couples married have been truly faithful all the days of their marriage. Begging the question, “If one is not truly Faithful were they ever truly Married? If not truly Married can they truly Divorce?

That is to say, to be truly faithful, one must first be founded upon unconditional love, righteousness, in much as they are “One” with the other... in every way. I have not known such a person and I have been married 35 years. Have You?

Here are insights to the above.

In a marriage one is a Lover and one is a Beloved. They are therefore different as they serve different roles. The Lover is the man who pursues courtship. The Beloved is the woman who accepts the Lover. In order to do so she must accept unconditionally. This comes with an acceptance that the Lover is unconditional as well.
Yet unconditional love comes from within. To be realized one has to unite their heart, mind and spirit as one. The Lord tells us to do this! The Hindu scripture tells us how. The sacred scripture from old teach how to do this. There is no other way... one must first do this! Both Lover and Beloved!

As time go on, the Lover offers first the nature of himself, family and social circles as an offering for acceptance. The Beloved as well offers her nature, family and social circles... all to gain favor with the other. In time, intimate discussion is pursued by the Lover in a courtship and in romance toward the Beloved. She in turn opens subtly at first to these advances, proving her insights toward discretion and behavior that is forthright, uplifting and measured in her conditional acceptance... only as the Lover proves his keep and steadfastness will she become unconditional. She will not do that until he proves he is unconditional.

One might ask. “How is this done?” Simple really! The romance of courting and dating is a constant that continues to evolve. Even and especially after marriage the romance begins the very moment their Love is consummated. This expression is the nature of unconditional love. You can see it in pseudepigrapha writings and teachings. This is no time to discuss canonization of such teachings, enough to say a righteous person who is unconditional within, can see it for themselves. The account of assembly by Constantine in the council of Nicea to discuss such matters is a testimony upon the condition of the Brothers at that time. Not judging, just saying! (sigh)

So if one speaks of divorce! They must first declare they are unconditional within. Have been in a constant unconditional romance with their spouse and the spouse is no longer receptive to this. One must be as described in order to divorce. This would not be adultery! I have not known one such as these in 40 adult years. I do not believe a spouse who received such love, would react in a manner to promote the desires of divorce in the other anyway. This one’s opinion!

So, one must understand the truth behind the Lord’s teaching. The Jews were divorcing at times to contend with younger and more acceptable women. This did not in any way show unconditional love from either within or from without. All divorce seen before the eyes of the Lord was/is hence Adultery. Those in conclusion, who exhibit unconditional love, this one suggests, are profoundly not confronted with such desires as divorce.

In conclusion: This one suggests that if one is divorcing for unfaithfulness there is likelihood they were never unconditionally in love in the first place. Never as one in their intimacy and were never truly married as one under God. That is why The Lord revealed what God has joined together as one, man should not separate. The very expression of divorce suggests that the participants were not united as one under God, first from within then as day to day from without in the first place.

The Lord did refrain that only the one who can renounce marriage because of the Kingdom of Heaven should do so. This one does not feel he has ever seen one who fully renounces marriage for the Kingdom of God. It would have to come from within first. If one was totally unconditionally in love with The Kingdom of God. Sexually desires would be inhibited. Paul speaks of this when he said it would be better for the likes of you to be as me. If not marry and go in peace!


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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:38 am 
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This discussion is open to all!

Kinda wish we had an ear from the Vatican. :pray:

Celibacy, on its own, is a contradiction toward what has been shared by scripture. Life in general does not serve one to be alone. Hence Eve, as it was declared regarding Adam being alone within the manifestation and all its creatures, just wasn't cutting it... so to speak. Even as the Holy Spirit walked with Adam in the Garden, Adam was of the flesh, even as he was spiritual, his passion was of the flesh.

Consider! One might suggest that as one rises in spirituality, the passion of the flesh, is amplified. That is to say the spiritual bliss (goosebumps) that is inherently realized while united in the spirit unbinds the fervour and passion of the flesh such that ultimately mimic's the orgasm in the flesh. Which this one believes is a combo of flesh passion and spirit. One, we could say, is most spiritual while during orgasm. I like to think of the lower five Commandments pertaining to mankind. When during orgasm does one contemplate the seeds of killing, adultery, stealing, bearing false witness or coveting. Na! Its a blissful state for sure! Reason why pornography is such a great imitator of love. Devious and unbalanced in nature, yet settling and free even if only for the moment from judgement and ego as the spirit rises.

If we consider those whom were empowered in the spirit, only a few such as John the Baptist, Mary mother of our Lord, Paul of Tarsus, the Apostles, Yeshua (Jesus), were anointed by the Holy spirit that their spiritual passion surpassed the passion of the flesh. Elijah, Enoch, Noah, Seth, Abraham, King David, Salomon, Isaac, Joseph, Sampson all were married before God. One wonders which Bishop before the Vatican today has a Spiritual calling before the likes of these above. Unbiased and without Judgement! :|

So unless one has been called By the Holy Spirit and who's passion is above and beyond temptation and desires of the flesh... Just saying! Is it not a recipe for Disaster! This one could not do it!. Forgiveness and understanding to all who tried and failed. May such misplaced passion be forgiven... let us pray to the Lord in understanding for such forgiveness.

Back to work...
Thoughts!


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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:44 am 
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might want to get one of the admins or mods to move this to the proper forum... but feel free to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you...since this is the welcome and intro forum

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Thank you!

When I figured out my error I did re-post under Catholicism 101. Not sure if that one was placed by admin or moderator. Sorry!

Any thoughts you would like to add, faithfulservant??

I am curious as usual as to where this posting might lead. I deem it similar to exploring after liberation or leaving one's comfort place... and just go with it.

If one looks closely enough, what was shared by and large holds to a consistency that.. well is remarkable... inspired by divine insights... if you will... as opposed to anything that originated in me!

Thoughts!


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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:36 pm 
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Welcome to the board, raybo! :wave

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Here goes!!

There was a time when my Christian brothers questioned me regarding sin. I was in my thirties! I had at the time been passionately in devotion and was I believe, unlocking the keys to what had bound me, and I was kinda becoming unknown to myself. Letting go of the little coffee cup lid world that I had always been prescribed to. It was a most humbling state to be in. In no way did I feel worthy in any way as I was all about giving up "me". Yet, a juvenile spirit was awakening in me.

Anyway, the point was directed toward all being sinners. I was asked, "So you agree that you are a sinner brother." I could not answer! For I knew the spirit awakened in me was without sin. I could never had considered myself without sin. In fact the very notion of the question was absurd to me. What was astonishing to me, even as I could not have put my finger on it at the time, was that the power of their conviction was corrupt, wrong, one might say evil. I would never call any one present evil, but what was spewing out of their mouths was unclean venom.Why couldn't any of them see that I was perhaps more purer than I ever had been?

Consider:

The few times I was immersed in devotion in a similar way, I found evil spewing from every crevice. In this context, to the Catholic Brothers who ever tried in their celibacy to succeed and fell so terribly, terribly bad. I wonder to what degree there prayers and petitions and their devotion had reached before the powers of Dark Lord overwhelmed their spirit? How many recesses of the damned intervened to twist their tribulation into disarray?

In retrospect, this ones suspect as the filth is shed from one's self the darkness is less obscure as it was before. Much is seen for the first time! Overwhelming for many! Perhaps what throws many off the precipice!

Sorry, it sorta just came out...

Does anyone share in the same context of insights ??


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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:48 pm 
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raybo, either you or perhaps a mod should move your posts here to a more appropriate forum.

I think I and others, would feel more comfortable answering your questions there.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:09 pm 
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Did anyone else read the title of this thread in Adam West's voice...it so reminded me of "To the Batcave!" :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:47 pm 
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no :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:17 pm 
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Killjoy. :P

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:40 pm 
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Welcome.

To be honest, I have trouble following what you have written.

Could you rephrase?

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:56 pm 
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I agree with Kage. Coming from one whose own ramblings can venture into the verbose, I quite frankly can't make heads or tails of what you're saying. :scratch:

This much did come to mind while I was trying to read your last post: we are all sinners. Anyone who says otherwise is either dangerously deluded or has been seriously corrupted by the devil's lies. While those of us in full Communion with Christ's One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church are indeed blessed and protected by the Holy Spirit, we are still flawed people in bodies that have a sinful nature that we must constantly battle. Do not allow the presence of divinity in your life to fool you into thinking you yourself are divine.

By the same token, do not allow yourself to be so consumed by the battle against the evil one that you see nothing but evil in the world. There is also much good and beauty here, all created by God the Father as a reminder that He loves us and is merciful. We have a divine army led by St. Michael the Archangel protecting us. Call upon him, the other saints, and the Holy Spirit for help. Don't try to slay all the demons in the world yourself. You can't, and to try denies yourself the most effective weapons in the spiritual arsenal: prayer and knowledge of God's promises as handed down to us via Scripture and Tradition.

If I have misunderstood what you have written, raybo, my apologies.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:37 am 
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Thanks for the shout out all!

The discussion of course is regarding divorce. The subtlety of address is not unlike the parable's shared by the Lord that points... rather then assigns.

In my last post I pointed to the exchange by Christian brothers regarding the acceptance of being a sinner. By definition, one could say any aspect of oneself that is not pure and holy is of a sinful nature. The charge by the brothers was focused on the sinful nature rather than on the spiritual. Question: Should one Marry before they are spiritually cleansed?

No "seeker" could ever declare they were sinless as the very operandi of seeking is to find one's way from being cut off from the divine and in an unclean sinful state. The manner, and attack that was thrust at me resembled Matthew 16:13. Where was the influence of their questioning coming from? What aspect in them lifted its head to try to deny what was taken place and to de-rail the cleansing of liberation sought after? Is it not better to embrace liberation and perhaps place it before Marriage?

The second last post pointed to celibacy. The Lord made no bones about it. There are distinct measures of acceptance regarding celibacy. Consider, those who were celibate by choice, mentioned in the bible were passionate, zealous, and oft, from the time of infancy. They were usually dedicated, by prayer, to the Kingdom of God by their parents or guardians and were often raised in the temple from birth. The innocence of an infant given over in the presence of God. The spirit so empowering that any other relationship of an intimate nature and passion forthcoming... is hence largely diminished. If any do not resemble the above, they no doubt will fail in their devotions and toward celibate endeavours. Others have "become: eunuchs because of the pain in their hearts from once loving when it was scorned so. It has to be very powerful event for this to happen!

Now if we say celibacy is a higher calling than divorce; as one's attention is constantly on the Kingdom of God and the spiritual anointing that supports it. What can be said regarding marriage and Divorce? Should anyone marry before they have explored the nature of love both from within and from without? Without this guidance, and understanding divorce surfaces and can be pointed to as the result of misguided attempts toward discovering unconditional love. Oft by growing apart or by having an affair with another.

Secular Society is using divorce for a means to move forward from what has been learned, or retreated from. Should this be denied! Should Catholic's have the same opportunity to divorce? Can it not be pointed out simply that the conditions were not right? Unconditionally Love not realized! Vows tainted by the obscurity of the hearts unfounded.

Can we say any two who marry on conditions that are temporal or because of infatuation and circumstance are not truly married at all? If not truly married, can they divorce? So... before divorce is considered between any two, can we point to an alternative?

The first posting points to weather there might be a better course... than for the Church to deny or accept Divorce? Should there be an onus on understanding Marriage instead? Should or can we teach what marriage really represents and how it is now typically failing? Is divorce a collapse of Marriage or a collapse of Ego's. Can we point that any who divorce were not truly married... and move on?

Can we discuss a solution to this, be showing that divorce points to the nature in the hearts of those involved? Can we point to the hearts of interested souls to wed and explain these inner insights?

I have a vignette i will share.. when i can post later today regarding this.

Blessings! Thoughts!


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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:56 am 
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Whoa!

I see what the problem is, raybo, and it isn't all that uncommon, especially with newbies. It's information overload. You're asking all your questions and making all your points at once. The "regulars" get frustrated trying to hack through all the themes, arguments, and topics out there for discussion. Meanwhile, the newbies get frustrated that their questions aren't getting answered.

Start with one simple thing, and one thing only. If you can't pose your question in 50 words or less, narrow it down. As the discussion continues, THEN add more theory, depth, etc.

So you want to talk about divorce? That's a very broad, very deep, and very sensitive topic. More than a few Catholics on this forum, myself included, have either gone through a divorce/annulment, are going through the process, or is close to someone who is or has gone through it. The current Synod in Rome has everyone on edge for reasons ranging from expectations that the Pope will allow divorced and remarried Catholics (who have not gone through the annulment process) to receive the Eucharist to dread that this will happen.

I will tell you now that advice on the annulment process is considered a "third rail" here. That kind of discussion is limited to two things: "be patient" and "talk to your priest."

So, with that having been said, what is your simple question?

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:58 am 
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Divorce is not a "calling". Divorce is not an "opportunity".

There are instances when legal divorce is necessary to protect a spouse or children from an abuser, however, those are the exception.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another's husband to herself.

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.



Of course we need to do better preparation for marriage, we as parents must be first! Stop teaching that marriage is about romance and soul mates and "finding the one who completes me". Teaching our children that marriage is a vocation, that it is permanent, that it is not to be tossed about like a tissue.

Learning and teaching that we are not slaves to our passions, that sex is reserved for a valid marriage and that it is not to be mutilated with contraception.

First and foremost, that prayer is part of marriage, part of every life, foundational.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:24 am 
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If only those marriages were valid where the partners had a complete understanding of marriage, then no marriage would be valid.

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 Post subject: Re: To the Vatican Bishops
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Bagheera,

Thank you! Your point is valid and true, perhaps for the exception of a very few.

The vignette offered is as follows.

There was an female associate/acquaintance that I frequented often for business. Much younger than myself. Over some time, years in fact, it was pointed out to me that her boyfriend and her were at an impasse whereby they frequently argued and were surely drawing the lines in the sand... as they pitched there tents, so to speak against one another.

She hadn't asked for any direction in the matter, yet I could feel the discord she was feeling within, so it moved me to ask, "Are you interested in a solution that would largely solve the matter between the two of you? For I have a solution if your interested! With that I walked out! The next opportunity, she vented as before, and she looked at me forlorn. I re-offered! Would you like to move on from your impasse.

ill return soon... a really cool story


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