Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 3   [ 57 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:16 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
jac3510 wrote:
The self-mortifications themselves aren't presented as evils--albeit necessary ones--to be suffered, but rather as goods to be sought in and of themselves! 
No human activity is sought in and of itself because humanity is not an end unto itself.
jac3510 wrote:
If I'm right, it would seem to me that any justification for asceticism would require self-mortifications necessary for spiritual growth, or at least for the attainment of a particular spiritual state (and, by extension, that such a spiritual state is more desirous than the respective spiritual state where the body is properly nurtured). 
Spiritual growth necessarily involves a participation of the body. Mortification is an external counterpart to the interior sorrow for sin.
jac3510 wrote:
With that said, I'm understanding you here to say that our suffering in self-mortification has something to do with the purging of our sin, which is what I can't accept. I obviously have no problem with the idea that Christ's suffering did that.
In addition to being an expression of the sorrow for sin, mortification is a way to abate the sensual appetites of the body before they erupt into sin. Matthew 5:30 has already been cited in reference to this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:58 pm 
Offline
**********
**********
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:21 pm
Posts: 205
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Religion: Catholic
jac3510 wrote:
But I didn't say that harming the body is sinful. I said intentionally harming the body is sinful. We aren't supposed to do that. We have this neat little sensation called "pain" that is primarily directed at keeping us from doing just that!


The inclination to regard pain as innately evil, arises from an 'inner enemy' that tries to tell us that our bodies are without sin.


"According to Saint Alphonsus, the principle purpose of penance and mortification is to "restrain the inordinate inclinations of self-love". It is with this perspective that we must begin--for, as the saint says, "self-love is the most deceitful of all enemies". If our three principle enemies are the world, the flesh, and the devil, the saints remind us that the flesh is the more formidable of the three, because it originates from within. "A domestic enemy," says St. Bernard, "is the worst of foes". St. John of the Cross echoes this sentiment; "The world is the enemy least difficult to conquer; the devil is the hardest to understand; but the flesh is the most tenacious, and its attacks continue as long as the old self lasts." "

This site gives a good explanation of mortifications...

http://www.religious-vocation.com/penan ... ation.html

_________________
****************************************

Image
'Venice Evening'
by Johanna
(My daughter
)

****************************************


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:12 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 10124
Location: Here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus, SVdP
ellietrish2 wrote:
jac3510 wrote:
But I didn't say that harming the body is sinful. I said intentionally harming the body is sinful. We aren't supposed to do that. We have this neat little sensation called "pain" that is primarily directed at keeping us from doing just that!


The inclination to regard pain as innately evil, arises from an 'inner enemy' that tries to tell us that our bodies are without sin.




4 out of 5 of the voices in my head say you are wrong, and the fifth thinks that you should join the party!

_________________
It is true that all roads to success are under construction. It is easy to say because, in this city, all roads are under construction. The real surprise is that success lies not in the road, but in the destination. If you don't go to heaven, your life is a failure!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:42 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:29 am
Posts: 6504
Location: Ireland
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Then I don't have to agree with gherkin when I say that you are wrong to state that intentionally harming the body is sinful. If it were, not even surgery would permit it. But since you and I are in agreement that harm is permitted for the cause of greater bodily health, how can it not follow that harm would be permitted all the more for the cause of greater spiritual health?

Well said.

It is a matter of opinion though, and a matter of individual choice, as to whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself. It could be a symptom of spiritual and/or psychological ill-health rather than a way of attaining greater spiritual health. It could well be a misguided way of trying to obtain greater spiritual health. But that wouldn't necessarily mean it is a sin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:46 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78356
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
It is for reasons such as that one that no one should ever adopt severe penitential practices without the permission of a skilled spiritual director.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:59 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78356
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Quote:
In the Lives of the Saints, in that of the Blessed Curé d’Ars, for instance, we read of fasts and vigils which would be indiscreet for many of us. They would reduce our strength and, more serious still, would weaken our faculties. We have even known cases of saints who have gone without food for several weeks. Whence is this different standard of conduct for them and us? It is that God aids them miraculously, and they are aware of this fact. They know that they can go to such or such lengths, physically and morally; either because they have received an extraordinary light, or because they have made a series of attempts, as St. Ignatius advises in his Rules for Temperance (Rule 4).
Graces of Interior Prayer, Ch. XXII, footnote to paragraph 14.

Quote:
Instead of striving to draw a little blood, seek our divine Master Himself in a more direct way, I mean His very holy gifts, such, for instance, as the gift of tears, which causes you to weep, now for your own sins and those of your neighbour, now at the spectacle of Our Lord’s mysteries, whether in this life or in the next, now with love for the Divine Persons”; or again: “The intensity of faith, hope, and charity, joy and spiritual repose, intense consolations, the flight of the spirit, impressions and divine illuminations and all other spiritual tastes and feelings relating to such gifts, like humility.... All these very holy gifts should be preferred to all corporal acts [of mortification], which are only good in so far as they serve to acquire these gifts, either wholly or in part. By this I do not mean to say that we should seek them solely for the pleasure and delectation that we find in them; certainly not. But recognising that, without these gifts, all our thoughts, words, and works are imperfect, cold, and tarnished, we should desire these gifts in order that they may thereby become righteous, ardent, and bright, for God’s greater service. It therefore follows that we should desire these most precious gifts, either wholly or in part, and these spiritual graces in so far as we can by their aid procure greater glory to God.
St. Ignatius of Loyola.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:02 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 10124
Location: Here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus, SVdP
torn wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Then I don't have to agree with gherkin when I say that you are wrong to state that intentionally harming the body is sinful. If it were, not even surgery would permit it. But since you and I are in agreement that harm is permitted for the cause of greater bodily health, how can it not follow that harm would be permitted all the more for the cause of greater spiritual health?

Well said.

It is a matter of opinion though, and a matter of individual choice, as to whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself. It could be a symptom of spiritual and/or psychological ill-health rather than a way of attaining greater spiritual health. It could well be a misguided way of trying to obtain greater spiritual health. But that wouldn't necessarily mean it is a sin.


Not if they followed their conscience :twisted:

_________________
It is true that all roads to success are under construction. It is easy to say because, in this city, all roads are under construction. The real surprise is that success lies not in the road, but in the destination. If you don't go to heaven, your life is a failure!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:31 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39753
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
torn wrote:
It is a matter of opinion though, and a matter of individual choice, as to whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself.

It is not at all a matter of individual choice. An individual doesn't choose whether severe mortifications will aid his spiritual growth. God chooses.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:00 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:29 am
Posts: 6504
Location: Ireland
Bagheera wrote:
torn wrote:
It is a matter of opinion though, and a matter of individual choice, as to whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself.

It is not at all a matter of individual choice. An individual doesn't choose whether severe mortifications will aid his spiritual growth. God chooses.

If an individual doesn't choose, then the individual cannot choose wrongly.

I clearly didn't say what you suggested I said.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:07 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 10124
Location: Here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus, SVdP
torn wrote:

I clearly didn't say what you suggested I said.


This appears to be a common thread!
Perhaps it is not the audience.

_________________
It is true that all roads to success are under construction. It is easy to say because, in this city, all roads are under construction. The real surprise is that success lies not in the road, but in the destination. If you don't go to heaven, your life is a failure!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:48 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:24 am
Posts: 9279
Quote:
It is a matter of opinion though, and a matter of individual choice, as to whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself.
I don't see how this statement could mean anything but this: Opinion and personal choice determine whether mortification provides spiritual benefits.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:39 pm 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:29 am
Posts: 6504
Location: Ireland
caleb wrote:
Quote:
It is a matter of opinion though, and a matter of individual choice, as to whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself.
I don't see how this statement could mean anything but this: Opinion and personal choice determine whether mortification provides spiritual benefits.

For all you pedants, and those of you who prefer to deliberately misunderstand rather than try to understand, here is what it means: Whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself is debatable, and individuals must decide for themselves whether to choose to do it or not.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:01 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 10124
Location: Here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus, SVdP
torn wrote:
caleb wrote:
Quote:
It is a matter of opinion though, and a matter of individual choice, as to whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself.
I don't see how this statement could mean anything but this: Opinion and personal choice determine whether mortification provides spiritual benefits.

For all you pedants, and those of you who prefer to deliberately misunderstand rather than try to understand, here is what it means: Whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself is debatable, and individuals must decide for themselves whether to choose to do it or not.


Individuals must decide for themselves whether to choose to do it or not?

So I take it you are against Spiritual direction? Many of the great saints of the Church did so under obedience to their director.

Is it spiritual direction, or obedience that you have a problem with?

_________________
It is true that all roads to success are under construction. It is easy to say because, in this city, all roads are under construction. The real surprise is that success lies not in the road, but in the destination. If you don't go to heaven, your life is a failure!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:07 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78356
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Quote:
Whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself is debatable, and individuals must decide for themselves whether to choose to do it or not.
In the general case, it is not at all debatable. The witness of the Church throughout the centuries has been uniform. That's why we're required to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday (it used to be more days and a stricter fast).

Whether it is wise in any individual case is another question, and in the end there are very few people who owe obedience to a spiritual director to the degree that he could bind them to some form of corporal penance beyond minor fasting. (The opposite is not true and bears repeating just in case: No one should ever take upon themselves any major corporal penance against or without the advice of a competent director.)

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:43 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 10124
Location: Here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus, SVdP
According to several reports,John Paul II was know to be actively involved.

_________________
It is true that all roads to success are under construction. It is easy to say because, in this city, all roads are under construction. The real surprise is that success lies not in the road, but in the destination. If you don't go to heaven, your life is a failure!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:50 am 
Offline
**********
**********

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:29 am
Posts: 6504
Location: Ireland
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
Whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself is debatable, and individuals must decide for themselves whether to choose to do it or not.
In the general case, it is not at all debatable. The witness of the Church throughout the centuries has been uniform. That's why we're required to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday (it used to be more days and a stricter fast).

Like jac, I was referring to more extreme forms of intentionally inflicting pain on yourself. Personally, I wouldn't consider fasting on one day as painful at all. I often fast completely for 24 hours, taking nothing but water. (Though there may be some people - who are addicted to food - for whom it might be painful.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Asceticism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:09 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 10124
Location: Here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Knights of Columbus, SVdP
torn wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
Whether or not there might be any spiritual benefit in intentionally inflicting pain on yourself is debatable, and individuals must decide for themselves whether to choose to do it or not.
In the general case, it is not at all debatable. The witness of the Church throughout the centuries has been uniform. That's why we're required to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday (it used to be more days and a stricter fast).

Like jac, I was referring to more extreme forms of intentionally inflicting pain on yourself. Personally, I wouldn't consider fasting on one day as painful at all. I often fast completely for 24 hours, taking nothing but water. (Though there may be some people - who are addicted to food - for whom it might be painful.)


John Paul did much more than that.

_________________
It is true that all roads to success are under construction. It is easy to say because, in this city, all roads are under construction. The real surprise is that success lies not in the road, but in the destination. If you don't go to heaven, your life is a failure!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 3 of 3   [ 57 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


Jump to:  
cron