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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 6:50 am 
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The quotation you gave.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:08 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The quotation you gave.


Which one?


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:46 am 
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ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Doom wrote:
The Church has never taught that all non-Catholics are automatically damned....


But the link just posted contains this quote, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" This is hard to explain to your Protestant friends and family.

It is a defined dogma of the Faith that there is no salvation outside the Church. So if the link purports to explain Catholic teaching, it had better contain that claim! As Doom and others are pointing out, exactly how we ought to understand that dogma is subject to some debate. And, as it happens, we're not allowed to have that debate here. (EENS is verboten as a debate topic on this forum.)

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:09 am 
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beng wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The former code presumed dolus; the current does not.


Source?


You quoted it:

Quote:
However, since penal law is to be interpreted benignly, the judge or ordinary should not too easily attribute criminal intent to the alleged offender. By contrast, the former code simply presumed criminal intent (dolus) if the law were broken (CIC 2200, §2)

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:56 am 
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I should also note that there is a great difference between a presumption and a statement of fact. A presumption only makes clear where the burden of proof is. For example, all marriages are presumed to be valid; a person requesting an annulment has to provide sufficient evidence to overturn that presumption. That's a strong presumption. I do not know how strong the presumption of wrongdoing was under the former code.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:02 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I should also note that there is a great difference between a presumption and a statement of fact. A presumption only makes clear where the burden of proof is. For example, all marriages are presumed to be valid; a person requesting an annulment has to provide sufficient evidence to overturn that presumption. That's a strong presumption. I do not know how strong the presumption of wrongdoing was under the former code.


Did you mean the one quoted by dcs?

I need confirmation to continue.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:57 am 
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Yes, I did.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:22 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Be aware that this article is in the National Catholic Reporter, which is openly hostile to any exercise of authority on the part of any male with an official role in the Church.



Is this Catholic newspaper considered to be liberal in its reporting?

If I may, the better question is: is this liberal newspaper considered to be Catholic? And the answer is: no.
Weren't they ordered many years ago by the Church to remove 'Catholic' from its name?

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Doom wrote:
ExsurgeDomine wrote:
If the story is correct and one of the priests high-fived a young child after the child said that non-Catholics go to hell, because they aren't Catholic, then that is certainly not in the spirit of the Second Vatican Council.


It's not in the spirit of ANY council, not even the Council of Trent...
I agree, but I find this so ridicolous that I wouldn’t be surprised if it never happened, and was made up in an attempt to smear the reputation of said priest.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
gherkin wrote:
ExsurgeDomine wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Be aware that this article is in the National Catholic Reporter, which is openly hostile to any exercise of authority on the part of any male with an official role in the Church.



Is this Catholic newspaper considered to be liberal in its reporting?

If I may, the better question is: is this liberal newspaper considered to be Catholic? And the answer is: no.
Weren't they ordered many years ago by the Church to remove 'Catholic' from its name?

They were condemned as heretical by their own bishop....and he wasn't exactly an arch-conservative. Back then the bishop was fairly liberal. Wreckovated many Churches.

Quote:
As the editors of the National Catholic Reporter know, I have tried as their pastor, responsible for their eternal welfare, and that of those whom they influence, to guide them on a responsible course in harmony with Catholic teachings. When private conferences were of no avail, as is well known, I had to issue a public reprimand for their policy of crusading against the Church's teachings on the transmission of human life, and against the Gospel values of sacred virginity and dedicated celibacy as taught by the Church.

NOW, AS a last resort, I am forced as bishop to issue a condemnation of the National Catholic Reporter for its disregard and denial of the most sacred values of our Catholic faith. Within recent months the National Catholic Reporter has expressed itself in belittling the basic truths expressed in the Creed of Pope Paul VI; it has made itself a platform for the airing of heretical views on the Church and its divinely constituted structure, as taught by the First and Second Vatican Councils. Vehemently to be reprobated was the airing in recent editions of an attack on the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the virgin birth of Christ, by one of its contributors.
Finally, it has given lengthy space to a blasphemous and heretical attack on the Vicar of Christ. It is difficult to see how well instructed writers who deliberately deny and ridicule dogmas of our Catholic faith can possibly escape the guilt of the crime defined in Canon 1325 on heresy, and how they can escape the penalties of automatic excommunication entailed thereby.

In fairness to our Catholic people, I hereby issue an official condemnation of the National Catholic Reporter. Furthermore, I send this communication to my brother bishops, and make known to the priests, religious and laity of the nation my views on the poisonous character of this publication.

...IN AS MUCH as the National Catholic Reporter does not reflect the teaching of the Church, but on the contrary, has openly and deliberately opposed this teaching. I ask the editors in all honesty to drop the term "Catholic" from their masthead. By retaining it they deceive their Catholic readers and do a great disservice to ecumenism by being responsible for the false irenicism of watering down Catholic teachings.

I further ask the editors and the board of directors, for the love of God and their fellow men, to change their misguided and evil policy; for it is evident to me that they have already caused untold harm to the faith and morals not only of our laity, but of too many of our priests and religious. ...


The NCRep. ignored this condemnation

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Yes, I did.


That one is not sure whether what is presumed is dolus or culpa. It says that dolus could be involved (ie. presumed).

While you seem to be sure that the new code do not presumed dolus.

Thus you can't use it to support your case that dolus is not presumed.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:55 pm 
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The quotation you gave clearly stated that the situation is different under the new code in exactly that respect.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The quotation you gave clearly stated that the situation is different under the new code in exactly that respect.


Yet, they did not exclude dolus. But you do. Which is why you can't use them to support the argument that dolus is excluded in the new CIC presumption of imputability.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:37 am 
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beng wrote:
Yet, they did not exclude dolus.

The authors clearly say that judges should avoid the presumption of dolus. What part of that is hard for you to understand?

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Bagheera wrote:
beng wrote:
Yet, they did not exclude dolus.

The authors clearly say that judges should avoid the presumption of dolus. What part of that is hard for you to understand?


Hard for me to understand ... seriously?


Anyway, it actually says, "the judge or ordinary should not too easily attribute criminal intent to the alleged offender."

"Too easily."

Meaning that one COULD presume dolus with the new CIC.

Thus it does not support the notion that the new CIC exclude dolus as a presumption.


And that is from a heretical liberal modernist book (see Fr. John Trigilio's comment on it over at amazon)


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:58 pm 
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beng wrote:
Bagheera wrote:
beng wrote:
Yet, they did not exclude dolus.

The authors clearly say that judges should avoid the presumption of dolus. What part of that is hard for you to understand?


Hard for me to understand ... seriously?


Anyway, it actually says, "the judge or ordinary should not too easily attribute criminal intent to the alleged offender."

"Too easily."

Meaning that one COULD presume dolus with the new CIC.

Thus it does not support the notion that the new CIC exclude dolus as a presumption.


And that is from a heretical liberal modernist book (see Fr. John Trigilio's comment on it over at amazon)

beng, you are wrong. The previous CIC as a matter of law presumed it. The current CIC doesn't. You need to show where it does. This is Roman law after all. What is not expressly permitted cannot be assumed to be so.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Malleus Haereticorum wrote:
beng, you are wrong. The previous CIC as a matter of law presumed it. The current CIC doesn't. You need to show where it does. This is Roman law after all. What is not expressly permitted cannot be assumed to be so.


The new CIC contains presumption of imputability. Imputability COULD mean culpa as well as dolus.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin bishop threatens denial of sacraments...
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Bagheera wrote:
Doom wrote:
as early as St. Augustine the Fathers noted that people who are born into heretical sects bear less guilt and responsibility than those who founded the sect....

Where can one find this in St. Augustine?


Isn't it a fairly obvious assertion? e.g. that modern Lutheran who were born and raised in the Lutheran church, who has never been confronted with the claims of the Catholic Church and has no overt hostility or rejection of the Church bears far less responsibility for his position than Martin Luther and the first generation of Lutherans who formally rejected and defected from the Catholic Church, or even a modern Catholic who leaves the Catholic Church to join the Lutheran church?

I didn't say 'no guilt at all' I said 'less guilt than those who created the heretical sect'.....that seems obvious...and any rate, no I don't have a citation, do you imagine I am claiming to be someone with a voluminous, encyclopedic knowledge of the Fathers who walks around with millions of citations floating in my head? Of course not. But the claim is referenced in the Catholic Encyclopedia and attributed to St. Augustine and the Fathers and I trust that it is a reliable source.

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