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 Post subject: Elijah and Enoch
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:23 pm 
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Steve Ray uses the example of Elijah and Enoch as precedence for bodily assumption to heaven. How is this squared with these scriptures?:

John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father."

John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

I thought all persons prior to Jesus' ascension, good or bad, went to the "Bosom of Abraham".


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:24 pm 
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I'm not sure how Steve used those examples; they are not precedents so much as types, because you are quite right in that they could not have gone to Heaven properly so-called before (at least) Easter.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I'm not sure how Steve used those examples; they are not precedents so much as types, because you are quite right in that they could not have gone to Heaven properly so-called before (at least) Easter.


I just heard him on EWTN radio using the example of Elijah and Enoch to show that since God assumed them, he could have assumed Mary as well. I just don't know how to reconcile it unless I misunderstood him.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:32 pm 
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It does show that God is able to take people body and soul out of their earthly existence, so if that's the sort of objection he was addressing, his response works. Moreover, and the more I think about it, it would seem that after Easter, Enoch and Elijah and all the other elect would proceed into Heaven; if they had their body in the Limbo of the Fathers, why would they lose them? So Steve's example works better than I thought.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:36 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
if they had their body in the Limbo of the Fathers, why would they lose them? So Steve's example works better than I thought.


I agree that God could have chosen to assume them body and soul into the Limbo of the Fathers. However Steve seemed to imply that they were assumed into Heaven right there and then, not Limbo.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:37 pm 
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Some of the Church Fathers claim that Elijah and Enoch will be the two witnesses in the end times to preach against the Antichrist. Also, some approved private phrophecies from saints say that Elijah and Enoch are still in paradise and will be kept in paradise until they are called to fulfil their mission in preaching against the Antichrist.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:39 pm 
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Without knowing exactly what Steve said, I hate to comment further.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:41 pm 
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Incidentally, Moses' body is also commonly believed to have been taken into Heaven (based on Jude 1:9); this would make sense in view of the Transfiguration, since both Moses and Elijah would truly be appearing in bodily form.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Incidentally, Moses' body is also commonly believed to have been taken into Heaven (based on Jude 1:9); this would make sense in view of the Transfiguration, since both Moses and Elijah would truly be appearing in bodily form.


And I feel the need to point out that the belief in the Assumption of Moses appears to have arisen as a result of the comment in the book of Deuteronomy that no one has ever found Moses' tomb 'to this day', which leads to the question 'okay, what happened to it?'


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:05 pm 
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Just Plain Doom wrote:
And I feel the need to point out that the belief in the Assumption of Moses appears to have arisen as a result of the comment in the book of Deuteronomy that no one has ever found Moses' tomb 'to this day', which leads to the question 'okay, what happened to it?'

Regardless of how the belief "arose," St. Jude was inspired when he wrote about it so we can be assured that it actually happened.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:24 pm 
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I don't agree, Jude is making a literary allusion. If I say 'this is just like the time that Lex Luthor cured cancer as part of his plot of kill Superman' does that imply that I think Superman is real?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:34 pm 
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We don't know that St. Jude is making a literary illusion, as we don't know that the Assumption of Moses was even extant when he was writing. Furthermore, Superman is clearly fiction and while the Assumption of Moses is apocryphal it does not follow that the event it describes is fiction.

"When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee." (Jude 1:9)

St. Jude is not talking about fictional characters here.

Douay-Rheims wrote:
"Contended about the body"... This contention, which is no where else mentioned in holy writ, was originally known by revelation, and transmitted by tradition. It is thought the occasion of it was, that the devil would have had the body buried in such a place and manner, as to be worshipped by the Jews with divine honours."


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:49 am 
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"So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-Peor; but no man knows his grave till this day."
[Deuteronomy 34:5+]


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:11 am 
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Agreed--Moses was buried. It's a question of what happened to his body after that.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:46 am 
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Indeed, one tradition holds that Our Lady was buried, and her tomb was opened for St. Thomas when he came late, only to find that it was empty.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:08 am 
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According to traditional commentaries there will be nine (some say ten) figures who merit to enter heaven without tasting death. Excerpted from the following website:

http://ohr.edu/ask/ask182.htm#Q5


• Chanoch
• Eliezer, servant of Avraham
• Eliyahu
• Mashiach [ben David]
• Chiram, the king of Tzur
• Eved, the king of Kushi
• Yaavetz, the son of Rabbi Yehudah HaNassi
• Batya, the daughter of Pharaoh
• Serach, the daughter of Asher (granddaughter of Yaakov).

According to some, Yehoshuah ben Levi should be included in this list.



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:17 am 
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I assume these are commentaries from a Jewish perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Elijah and Enoch
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:29 am 
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I'm very sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I feel it is urgent and necessary to resolve the topic of this thread. It left several questions hanging. I want to first say that I am a practicing cradle Catholic. I am aware of the excellent work Steve Ray has done with his apologetics in dispelling myths about the Catholic Church. He especially shines in his ecclesiology. But because Steve Ray DOES have such authority with so many, especially internet surfers, I think it is imperative that he RECONSIDER his statements in his document linked below.

1. Did Steve Ray actually say that Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven? Yes. And here is a link to where he says it. http://www.catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/AssumptionAndQueen2.pdf This is a pdf document and his saying is around page 10.

2. This is really a grievous error and spreading of misinformation, as well as undermining Catholic Doctrine on Original Sin, Redemption, and the Gospel itself.

3. There is a great website that easily refutes the notion that Enoch, Elijah, Moses and whomever else one cares to add to the list was assumed into heaven before the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Check here: http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html This argument is being made just on the authority of Scripture itself, as the author is not Catholic. HOWEVER is reasoning and conclusions ARE CATHOLIC and consistent with Church teachings.

4. Steve Ray would have been better off to draw his arguments and proofs directly from Munificentissimus Deus itself, as that is the Document that the Catholic Church itself uses to PROVE AND JUSTIFY its belief and doctrine in the Assumption of Mary. A careful perusal of this document, here: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html will show that the Church NEVER uses the example of Enoch and Elijah. A Biblical precedent would have absolutely been included in this doctrine, IF IT WERE VALID. Much that is quoted from the Bible is from Psalms, Canticles, and other types and allusions to the Ark of the Covenant. Was this an oversight by the Church or PP XII? Of course not.

5. The dissemination of this myth, has created ANOTHER distinct error. Many young internet savy Catholics are now believing that some people NEVER DIED, including the Virgin Mary herself, despite Blessed Pope John Paul II's effort to quash that error. here: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_25061997_en.html This myth is being repeated and spread like a virus among EVEN THE CLERGY!

6. This myth is also undermining the SINGULARITY AND SUBLIMITY of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. It is portraying the Assumption as if it is just another assumption in a long history of various assumptions, (for whatever reason). The Document Mun. Deus EXPLICITY says the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are tied together. IOW, it is WITHOUT PRECEDENT in salvation history.

7. I know that many will say that Mun. Deus does not CATEGORICALLY, EXPLICITLY teach that the Virgin Mary died, but we just can't ignore Popes, Tradition, the Church of the East and Liturgy from Apostolic times till now based on a legalistic interpretation of this document.

I hope this thread will attract the notice of Steve Ray himself, and that he will please respond.


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 Post subject: Re: Elijah and Enoch
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:35 am 
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Steve doesn't read the board because he has a full schedule and little time to spend on here.

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 Post subject: Re: Elijah and Enoch
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:47 am 
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Quote:
. I know that many will say that Mun. Deus does not CATEGORICALLY, EXPLICITLY teach that the Virgin Mary died, but we just can't ignore Popes, Tradition, the Church of the East and Liturgy from Apostolic times till now based on a legalistic interpretation of this document.
I agree with many of your other points, but when dealing with a dogmatic declaration such as this, the "legalistic interpretation" is the correct one. If the Holy Father had wished to say that Our Lady died, he would have done so. It would have been the perfect opportunity to say it, but he didn't, and that omission suggests that he didn't want to prevent any further discussion of the point. You are free to advance the other very strong arguments that you advance, definitely including the words of Blessed John Paul II, but they do not make it certainly erroneous to advance the contrary opinion.

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