The Catholic Message Board
http://forums.avemariaradio.net/

Faith and reason
http://forums.avemariaradio.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=143157
Page 3 of 3

Author:  ThomisticCajunAggie [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Mithrandir wrote:
Will Storm wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Is it honestly rational to think that the early Christians would have died proclaiming the resurrection if they knew better?

The supernatural historical events of Christianity were widely witnessed. No one except Muhammed was there for the alleged dictation of the Koran.


I would say that someone dying for an idea is not sufficient to say that idea is right or true.

But, I do concede that the supernatural events of Christianity were widely witnessed. And I generally have Faith in the tenets of Catholicism. I just go through periods of doubt and inability to defend my positions.


That may be true for one or maybe two people. But all of the Apostles but St. John were martyred; you'd think that if there was some "cat in the bag" to be let out that one of them, under the torture that the Romans were notorious for, would have spilled the beans to save his life. Yet not one did.

To them it obviously wasn't them dying for a mere idea, they were dying for someone.


FTFY

Author:  Will Storm [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

What were they dying for if not the idea that Christ died for our sins?

Anyway, I can concede that there is more than enough evidence to say that the empty tomb can only mean one of two things. Christ's body was removed by someone else or Christ was resurrected. It seems that due to eye witness accounts, Christ was resurrected.

My real issue with moving from reason alone to Faith is just an image of what was going on then and how it has transpired to how the Church protects what Christ was fighting and suffering for then (and still is).

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=143194

I should perhaps look here to better understand that image...?

Author:  Will Storm [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Acts of the Apostles was very helpful too.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Will Storm wrote:
What were they dying for if not the idea that Christ died for our sins?
Is that an idea?

Author:  Will Storm [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Well, father, it seems that the issue we have in front of us is we are trying to answer that question by appealing to the devoted-to-death attitudes the Apostles had. You seem to be claiming that we can know that something more than idea occurred because of that very attitude...

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

You keep using the word "idea," and I have no idea what you mean by it.

Author:  Will Storm [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

I mean, specifically, that there is a proposition that the Apostles died for, but in the case of that specific proposition or idea, if it is true then it is more than an idea or a proposition.

"Idea" is meant to acknowledge the potential to be true or not. Japanese pilots died for the idea that it was honorable to die fighting for their cause.
It could be argued that it wasn't honorable.

Is it your position that whether true or not, the Apostles died for Christ (not and idea, but a person?)

Author:  melkman [ Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Will Storm wrote:
I mean, specifically, that there is a proposition that the Apostles died for, but in the case of that specific proposition or idea, if it is true then it is more than an idea or a proposition.

"Idea" is meant to acknowledge the potential to be true or not. Japanese pilots died for the idea that it was honorable to die fighting for their cause.
It could be argued that it wasn't honorable.

Is it your position that whether true or not, the Apostles died for Christ (not and idea, but a person?)


The Apostles died on the conviction that they had SEEN the risen Christ. They didn't die just for an ideology--they died because they were convinced they had seen, and spent time with, a person who had clearly been dead.

The Anglican NT Wright probably has THE definitive academic historical defense (contemporary) of the resurrection. You can find fairly compelling overviews in the evangelical Gary Habermas as well (see his debate with Antony Flew, available in writing).

I will say more on the faith and reason material in the next couple of days, as time permits. It is an interesting question.

melkman

Author:  Will Storm [ Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

melkman wrote:
The Apostles died on the conviction that they had SEEN the risen Christ. They didn't die just for an ideology--they died because they were convinced they had seen, and spent time with, a person who had clearly been dead.


I am unsure as to why this is causing so much trouble. I believe that Christ died and rose on the third day. But, I was merely using 'idea' to mean a proposition, or even a conviction.

melkman wrote:
The Anglican NT Wright probably has THE definitive academic historical defense (contemporary) of the resurrection. You can find fairly compelling overviews in the evangelical Gary Habermas as well (see his debate with Antony Flew, available in writing).


I will look into this, thank you.

Author:  Gandalf the Grey [ Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Will Storm wrote:
melkman wrote:
The Apostles died on the conviction that they had SEEN the risen Christ. They didn't die just for an ideology--they died because they were convinced they had seen, and spent time with, a person who had clearly been dead.


I am unsure as to why this is causing so much trouble. I believe that Christ died and rose on the third day. But, I was merely using 'idea' to mean a proposition, or even a conviction.
[/quote]

So, are you insisting that what they saw was an illusion or a hallucination?

Author:  Will Storm [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Mithrandir wrote:
So, are you insisting that what they saw was an illusion or a hallucination?



I suppose so. I am more entertaining these possibilities than I am insisting them.
How do we know that what that saw was not merely allusion?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Illusions have cause. Moreover, St. Paul alludes to resurrection appearances in an "everybody knows" fashion, so now you have to explain an illusion that hundreds of people saw.

Author:  Will Storm [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Illusions have cause. Moreover, St. Paul alludes to resurrection appearances in an "everybody knows" fashion, so now you have to explain an illusion that hundreds of people saw.


I am not sure what weight the first comment holds... I think I can concede the fact that illusions have causes and still hold that it could be an illusion...

St. Paul alludes it so it is true?
Or, there was no reason for St. Paul to allude to the resurrection appearances in and "everybody knows" fashion unless it was true?

I assume you are arguing the latter.

I have Faith because it was given to me. I do not know why, but it was. When I argue with people about having Faith in something that is not demonstrable (as necessitated by Faith) it is difficult for me to explain. So, I am wondering what to say to them when they say, "The Apostles went nuts when Christ died so they stole his body, got rid of it, and told people he resurrected and appeared to a bunch of people." Regardless of the fact that such positions are pure conjecture, it is difficult for me to prove them wrong.

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

What would be the cause of the illusion?

St. Paul alludes to the resurrection appearances as a given fact. He says, in essence, "You know some of these people. You can go ask them if they saw the risen Christ."

Author:  Will Storm [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

I am sorry, but it just doesn't seem relevant.

I do not inherently attribute truth to what people say. Why (if I don't have Faith) should I believe St. Paul? So what if he says I can ask people that I know?

Author:  Obi-Wan Kenobi [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Would he invite you to ask people you know if he'd made the whole thing up?

Author:  Will Storm [ Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Reasonably speaking, it would be unlikely. And I think this is where some knowledge of the early Church (from Acts of the Apostles up until it became the state religion of the Roman Empire) would serve me well.

As it stands in my head, Paul was simply a convert who became an Apostle of Christ and wrote about some of the things he experienced. Some history would help develop that IDEA!

But, more to the point. I feel pretty comfortable saying to an agnostic or atheist: "now why the heck would Paul write that, and why the heck are there 100+ people participating in Pentecost, and so on and so forth. It might not be a sure thing, but it would take quite a leap to respond, "because people are being misled"

Author:  Gandalf the Grey [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

Will Storm wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
So, are you insisting that what they saw was an illusion or a hallucination?



I suppose so. I am more entertaining these possibilities than I am insisting them.
How do we know that what that saw was not merely allusion?


From Peter Kreeft's "Handbook";
Against the hallucination theory: thirteen arguments
1)There were too many witnesses.
2)The witnesses were qualified. They were simple honest, moral people who had first-hand knowledge of the facts.
3)The five hundred saw Christ together, at the same time and place. This is even more remarkable than 500 private "hallucinations".
4)Hallicinations usually last only a few seconds or minutes; rarely hours. This one hung around for forty days.
5)Hallucinations usually happen only once, except to the insane. This one returned many times to ordinary people.
6)Hallucinations come from within, from what we already know, at least unconciously. This one said and did surprising and unexpected things, like a real person and not a dream.
7)Not only did the disciple not expect this, they at first did not believe it. They thought he was a ghost; he had to eat something to prove that he's wasn't.
8)Hallucinations do not eat. Jesus did on two occasions(Lk 24:42-43; Jn 21:1-14).
9)The disciples touched him.
10)They also spoke with him ,and he spoke back. Figments of your imagination don't hold profound, extended conversations with you, unless you have the kind of mental disorder that isolates you. But this "hallucination" conversed with at least eleven people at once, for forty days.
11)The apostles could not have believed in the hallucination if Jesus' corpse was still in the tomb.
12)If the apostles had spread their hallucinogenic story, the Jews would have stopped them by producing the body-unless the disciples had stolen it. That leads back to the conspiracy theory.
13)A hallucination would only explain the post-resurrection appearances; it would not explain the empty tomb, the rolled-away stone. or the inability to produce a corpse. No theory can explain all these data except a real resurrection.

Author:  Will Storm [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

very good. I think the hallucination theory has been soundly trumped. Seeing as the New Gospels are the references by which Kreeft makes these arguments, it seems that the only possibility left is that the authors of these facts were lying.
I do not entertain that idea for very long.

Author:  Will Storm [ Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Faith and reason

PS, any insight from either of you about which I should read?

The Early Church by Henry Chadwick
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/014023 ... 01_details

or

The Story of the Church by Rev. Fr. George Johnson, Ph.D., Rev. Fr. Jerome D. Hannan, Ph.D., J.C.D. & Sr. M. Dominica, O.S.U., Ph.D.
https://tanbooks.benedictpress.com/inde ... oduct_id/3

Page 3 of 3 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/