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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:19 pm 
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I was stunned to see Vandana Shiva make the same point as Feser:

Quote:
Reductionism, however, is not an epistemological accident. It is related to the needs of a
particular form of economic organization. The reductionist worldview, the industrial
revolution and the capitalist economy were the philosophical, technological and
economic components of the same process. Individual firms and fragmented sectors of
the economy, whether privately or publicly owned, have their own efficiency needs in
mind; and every firm and sector measures its efficiency by the extent to which it
maximizes its gains, regardless of the fact that in the process it also maximizes the social
and ecological costs of the production process The logic of this internal efficiency is
provided by reductionism: only those properties of a resource system are taken into
account which generate profits through exploitation and extraction; properties which
stabilize ecological processes but are commercially non-exploitative are ignored and
eventually destroyed.


The rationality and efficacy of the reductionist and non-reductionist knowledge systems
are never evaluated cognitively The rationality of reductionist science is declared a priori
superior, even though it can be argued that if reductionist science has displaced non-
reductionist modes of knowledge, it has done so not through cognitive competition, but
through political support from the state and the state's development policies and
development programmes which provide both financial subsidies and ideological support
for the appropriation of nature for profits

SCIENCE, HEGEMONY & VIOLENCE
A REQUIEM FOR MODERNITY


That scientism is part of a modern project, that it prevailed not because of its truth and disproving rival views but by state support etc.

I found this stunning because she probably differs from Feser on several other things, and comes from a totally different background and context.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:44 am 
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Asking for a friend. Is Ideas Have Consequences good?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:09 am 
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Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:09 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
I was stunned to see Vandana Shiva make the same point as Feser:

Quote:
Reductionism, however, is not an epistemological accident. It is related to the needs of a
particular form of economic organization. The reductionist worldview, the industrial
revolution and the capitalist economy were the philosophical, technological and
economic components of the same process. Individual firms and fragmented sectors of
the economy, whether privately or publicly owned, have their own efficiency needs in
mind; and every firm and sector measures its efficiency by the extent to which it
maximizes its gains, regardless of the fact that in the process it also maximizes the social
and ecological costs of the production process The logic of this internal efficiency is
provided by reductionism: only those properties of a resource system are taken into
account which generate profits through exploitation and extraction; properties which
stabilize ecological processes but are commercially non-exploitative are ignored and
eventually destroyed.


The rationality and efficacy of the reductionist and non-reductionist knowledge systems
are never evaluated cognitively The rationality of reductionist science is declared a priori
superior, even though it can be argued that if reductionist science has displaced non-
reductionist modes of knowledge, it has done so not through cognitive competition, but
through political support from the state and the state's development policies and
development programmes which provide both financial subsidies and ideological support
for the appropriation of nature for profits

SCIENCE, HEGEMONY & VIOLENCE
A REQUIEM FOR MODERNITY


That scientism is part of a modern project, that it prevailed not because of its truth and disproving rival views but by state support etc.

I found this stunning because she probably differs from Feser on several other things, and comes from a totally different background and context.

We premoderns have a lot more in common with one another than any of us has with the moderns and post moderns. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:31 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Yes.

Is it written well, are his points correct, are they relevant?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:01 pm 
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Thank you

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:52 am 
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Geach and Gilson are often fsvorably mentioned in a Thomist group I am a member of on FB. It is an excellent group with many professors and people with doctorates as well as ameteurs like myself. The group is the most consistently solid and intellectual group I have ever come across on FB. I have one book by Geach as per recommendation from that group though I have not yet read it. I have been studying mostly the Conquest of New Spain (Mexico) and Freemasonry this year. I am about to switch gears, though.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:55 am 
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This is the group I was speaking of if anyone cares to join Thomism Discussion Group It is a very active, no nonsense group.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:27 pm 
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Geach and Gilson are extremely dissimilar. Both are Catholic philosophers, but beyond that there's little similarity. I don't see much point in laymen reading anything much by Geach, whereas at least a fair bit of Gilson is pretty interesting to the educated general public. I'm curious what the Geach book is that you mentioned. Mental Acts? God and the Soul?

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:55 pm 
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It was Logic Matters

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:21 pm 
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That'll be a fun read! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:02 am 
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gherkin wrote:
That'll be a fun read! :wink:

I need to learn what the symbols mean.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:52 am 
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"Need" seems to me a serious overstatement. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:07 am 
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In order to better understand this tome on logic, it would behoove me to learn the meaning of such symbols of the study of logic as are utilized in this work.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:16 am 
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I get that. :D I'm just saying...this is pretty technical stuff. What's the point? Just interest? That's fine, obviously. It's your time, not mine!

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:56 am 
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I guess I find things to be fun that others do not.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:01 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
I found Feser easy to understand.



Feser's books are intentionally dumbed down for a general audience, they aren't 'real' philosophy books.


You haven’t read “Aristotle's Revenge”.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:25 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Anyone who wants can grasp some general and important principles of philosophy. In fact, I would argue that most of what is wrong with modern society comes from a failure to do this by people who are eminently capable of doing so.

Can you explain how Occamism is behind modern problems generally, and particularly with reference to justification of homosexual marriage, inter-religious marriage, greedy consumerism and spending excessive time on smartphone screens, please?

I don't disagree with you and Feser, but I've taken the blame on Occam as a thing of trust rather than by demonstration and reasoning.

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 Post subject: Re: From Feser's endnotes
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:01 pm 
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I'm not sure it's directly applicable to consumerism and screen time, and perhaps not to interreligious marriage, but it certainly is with respect to abortion and same-sex marriage.

Occam believed that the most important definition of "free" was absence of any constraints whatsoever. For example, he held to a divine-command theory of ethics in which right and wrong are completely arbitrary because he didn't want to say that God must be good, viewing this as a limit on divine freedom.

With respect to humans, that means that being "human" is a completely mutable and arbitrary concept. You are what you say you are, or you are not free. The nadir of this concept showed up in the notorious U.S. Supreme Court decision in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, in a decision authored by (sigh) Catholic and Catholic-educated Justice Anthony Kennedy: "At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State."

So sex, gender, marriage, etc. are whatever an individual decides they are. Moreover, all laws are only positive laws and changeable if desired.

Nominalism follows from this because to make freedom an absolute in this sense, you have to deny the existence of "human nature" as a real thing.

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