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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:26 pm 
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Our Lady's Gladiator
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
is there a difference between limbo and the beatific vision?

Yes. The essential feature of Limbo, should it exist, is that the souls there do not have the Beatific Vision.


well that was a perfect setup, Father ... i should have quoted denise when i supplied my answer... i answered her question with a question....for her to ponder.... then you came along and provided the answer to my question to her...so she can check her answer with the right answer, provided by "the Church" :cloud9: 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:12 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
i answered her question with a question....

faithfulservant wrote:
do you typically answer a question with a question....

:wave


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:17 pm 
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JM3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
If baptism is not necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, why is baptism necessary for infants?

But baptism is necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, just as it is for infants, children, adults, everyone.

And that makes it less clear. How could baptism be "necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies" when baptism is impossible for miscarried and aborted babies?


CCC 1257 - The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Reread CCC 1261.

But Baptism is impossible for miscarried or aborted babies.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:21 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
If baptism is not necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, why is baptism necessary for infants?

But baptism is necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, just as it is for infants, children, adults, everyone.

And that makes it less clear. How could baptism be "necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies" when baptism is impossible for miscarried and aborted babies?


CCC 1257 - The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Reread CCC 1261.

But Baptism is impossible for miscarried or aborted babies.


This has already been explained to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:32 pm 
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Here's our friend, the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, this time Chapter IV:

    A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE

    In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

    This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

    Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So it is evident, from the official teaching of the Church, that water baptism can be substituted for in certain circumstances; but even then, the desire for the sacrament must be present, so that baptism remains an essential part of the cleansing process.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:45 pm 
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JM3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
But baptism is necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies, just as it is for infants, children, adults, everyone.

And that makes it less clear. How could baptism be "necessary for the salvation of miscarried and aborted babies" when baptism is impossible for miscarried and aborted babies?


CCC 1257 - The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Reread CCC 1261.

But Baptism is impossible for miscarried or aborted babies.


This has already been explained to you.

But is it explained in the Catechism? Paragraph 1257 needs explaining. Otherwise what is a woman who has had a miscarriage (or an abortion) to think, if she is not deep into Catholic theology and she reads in the Catechism "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation."?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:48 pm 
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CCC 1261


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:59 pm 
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theJack wrote:
In what sense is it meaningful to talk about the "salvation" of miscarried and aborted individuals if we adopt the view that they are granted full natural happiness while denied the Beatific Vision?

Where does that view come from? It doesn't make sense, because if it were true, it would mean that the eternal fate of an aborted individual - as to whether they are denied the Beatic Vision - is decided not by anything the individual does or doesn't do, and not by God, but by the mother who chooses to an abortion (or in some cases by the people who force the mother to have an abortion. That cannot be right.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:06 pm 
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JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:16 pm 
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Here is what the Baltimore Catechism says:

Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?

A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:53 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


How?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:01 pm 
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Our Lady's Gladiator
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Denise Dee wrote:
faithfulservant wrote:
i answered her question with a question....

faithfulservant wrote:
do you typically answer a question with a question....

:wave

sweet! do you think that was not on purpose? :mrgreen: :wave :cloud9:

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:44 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


I don't think that you understand just what a contradiction actually is.

Especially given the last sentence of paragraph 1257:
"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:45 am 
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gherkin wrote:
The principal meaning of 'salvation' is liberation from sin and its consequences. While the state of sanctifying grace is not natural to man, we were in fact created in such a state, and its loss is part and parcel of original sin. Those who die in a state of sanctifying grace are brought to be face to face with God. Those who die outside of such a state do not enter the beatific vision. This latter fact--failing to be in a state of grace--is a consequence of sin. Those who are saved are liberated from that fact--again, the failure to be in a state of grace--and what follows from it, namely, eternal separation from God. Those who are not saved are not so liberated.

*sigh*

I knew that. And that's why I shouldn't ask even simple questions when I'm struggling with a cold. Stuffy head leads to fuzzy thinking, and other wise easy stuff slips right past. But thanks for pointing it out so clearly.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:39 am 
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:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:44 pm 
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Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


I don't think that you understand just what a contradiction actually is.

Especially given the last sentence of paragraph 1257:
"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

Of course I understand what a contradiction is, but Gandalf you obviously don't understand what a first sentence is! Here's what I said, with the part you don't understand highlighted:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


CCC 1261 does not contradict the last sentence of CCC 1257, but they both contradict the first sentence of 1257.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:51 pm 
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JM3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


How?

The first sentence of CCC 1257 unequivocally states that baptism is necessary for salvation, that "the Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation", and then CCC 1261 says that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.

That is clearly a contradiction.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:53 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
JM3 wrote:
CCC 1261

CCC 1261 clearly contradicts the first sentence of CCC 1257.


How?

The first sentence of CCC 1257 unequivocally states that baptism is necessary for salvation, that "the Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation", and then CCC 1261 says that Baptism may not be necessary for salvation.

That is clearly a contradiction.


Hoping "that there is a way of salvation" does not contradict the necessity of Baptism.

I can hope that someday you will understand. That doesn't mean you will.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:43 am 
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Its kind of amazing that the whole team of authors and editors behind the CCC didn't notice that clear contradiction in the months and years during which the text was prepared. And yet it can be picked up on in a matter of seconds by DD! After all, it's obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it a sin for a rape victim to pray for a miscarriage?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:23 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Its kind of amazing that the whole team of authors and editors behind the CCC didn't notice that clear contradiction in the months and years during which the text was prepared. And yet it can be picked up on in a matter of seconds by DD! After all, it's obvious.


Wut bout us poaw ol catholik folk. We ken read too. Ay'm promise we ken too. Wez understand.

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