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 Post subject: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:22 pm 
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Please read the short article I have linked, then comment.

https://reknew.org/2007/12/do-you-belie ... actuality/

What the writer says appears plausible, but I (and he) could certainly be missing something.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:46 pm 
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What Greg Boyd is missing is any understanding of philosophy. He really, really doesn't know what he's talking about with respect to God's acting in time or to the Incarnation; and the fact that he sees potential as being a positive thing in finite created beings has nothing to do with potential in respect to God. It's sheer silliness, bolstered by the standard (and false) insinuation that things he doesn't like can be ascribed to the noxious influence of Greek philosophy.

As Peter Kreeft points out, you can't avoid doing philosophy; you can only avoid doing it well. Boyd is a case in point.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:25 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
What Greg Boyd is missing is any understanding of philosophy. He really, really doesn't know what he's talking about with respect to God's acting in time or to the Incarnation; and the fact that he sees potential as being a positive thing in finite created beings has nothing to do with potential in respect to God. It's sheer silliness, bolstered by the standard (and false) insinuation that things he doesn't like can be ascribed to the noxious influence of Greek philosophy.

As Peter Kreeft points out, you can't avoid doing philosophy; you can only avoid doing it well. Boyd is a case in point.


Could you explain in a little more depth, please?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:09 pm 
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From the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Incarnation:

Quote:
It is to be remembered that, when the Word took Flesh, there was no change in the Word; all the change was in the Flesh. At the moment of conception, in the womb of the Blessed Mother, through the forcefulness of God’s activity, not only was the human soul of Christ created but the Word assumed the man that was conceived. When God created the world, the world was changed, that is, it passed from the state of nonentity to the state of existence; and there was no change in the Logos or Creative Word of God the Father. Nor was there change in that Logos when it began to terminate the human nature. A new relation ensued, to be sure; but this new relation implied in the Logos no new reality, no real change; all new reality, all real change, was in the human nature. Anyone who wishes to go into this very intricate question of the manner of the Hypostatic Union of the two natures in the one Divine Personality, may with great profit read St. Thomas (III:4:2); Scotus (in III, Dist. i); (De Incarnatione, Disp. II, sec. 3); Gregory, of Valentia (in III, D. i, q. 4). Any modern text book on theology will give various opinions in regard to the way of the union of the Person assuming with the nature assumed.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:21 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Incarnation:

Quote:
It is to be remembered that, when the Word took Flesh, there was no change in the Word; all the change was in the Flesh. At the moment of conception, in the womb of the Blessed Mother, through the forcefulness of God’s activity, not only was the human soul of Christ created but the Word assumed the man that was conceived. When God created the world, the world was changed, that is, it passed from the state of nonentity to the state of existence; and there was no change in the Logos or Creative Word of God the Father. Nor was there change in that Logos when it began to terminate the human nature. A new relation ensued, to be sure; but this new relation implied in the Logos no new reality, no real change; all new reality, all real change, was in the human nature. Anyone who wishes to go into this very intricate question of the manner of the Hypostatic Union of the two natures in the one Divine Personality, may with great profit read St. Thomas (III:4:2); Scotus (in III, Dist. i); (De Incarnatione, Disp. II, sec. 3); Gregory, of Valentia (in III, D. i, q. 4). Any modern text book on theology will give various opinions in regard to the way of the union of the Person assuming with the nature assumed.


Understand.

Question: couild it be said of God that He is without potentiality in terms of His ontological state, that is, He needs nothing added to be perfect, therefore is without potentiality in His being, but in terms of His relationship to the world, there is potentiality which does not affect actus purus?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:17 pm 
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The potentiality is all on the side of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The potentiality is all on the side of the world.


Okay. So how does this relate to chronological time? If there is no potential (or various choices that God could or would make in regards to us) then it sounds like God is one single act in which is incorporated all that ever has or will exist. In other words, creation was something that was not only a single act, but all that followed it, determined beforehand by the single act/will of God.

If I understand actus purus correctly, there is one single act which is God, which has in it neither potentiality or need. Within this single act, all that is has been determined and will come to pass. In essence then, we are just living out what has already been determined from eternity.

Now show me why I am in error, please.


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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:36 pm 
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Are we back on grace and free will again?

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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:37 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Are we back on grace and free will again?


I guess.

I probably didn't understand it.

Instead of wasting your time, do you have the link for the discussion here?


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 Post subject: Re: Is God Actus Purus?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:59 pm 
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Not handy :) To some degree it's an insoluble question, how our free will co-exists with God's sovereignty. The problem is that denying God's sovereignty leads into a theological abyss.

ETA: "Insoluble" in the sense that we're not going to figure it out, perhaps because we are unable to grasp the principles involved.

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