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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Suppose I say, "Paneer butter masala is good, and the Harry Potter series is good."

Now, when I say the paneer makhani is good, I mean that it is delicious. But I didn't mean that the Harry Potter series is delicious in the same sense. If I say, the HP series is better than paneer butter masala (I'd side with paneer in reality though), I don't mean that it is more delicious.

So it is with the love of God and man. They are not just quantitatively different. They are qualitatively different.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore;
fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapïenza e 'l primo amore.

Can you tell me what it means, please?

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:11 pm 
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    `Per me si va ne la città dolente,
    per me si va ne l'etterno dolore,
    per me si va tra la perduta gente.

    Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore;
    fecemi la divina podestate,
    la somma sapïenza e 'l primo amore.

    Dinanzi a me non fuor cose create
    se non etterne, e io etterno duro.
    Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate'.

----------------------

    I am the way into the city of woe,
    I am the way into eternal pain,
    I am the way to go among the lost.

    Justice caused my high architect to move;
    Divine omnipotence created me,
    The highest wisdom, and the primal love.

    Before me there were no created things
    But those that last forever--as do I.
    Abandon all hope you who enter here.

Esolen translation.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:46 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Oh, so when Christ literally says “Believe” it means “Believe”.

But when Christ says to “Eat my Flesh” and that “My Flesh is true food”, those aren’t literal.

Thank you for making my point.

Of course, obviously.

What, do you really think that I'm somehow inclined to hold that everything Christ said was literal? Do you really think non-Catholics are stupid? I take the literal literally and the figurative figuratively, and both always in context.

"Eat My flesh" and "My flesh is true food" are metaphors. "Believe" is not a metaphor. The referent for the word "believe" is its denotation, and so it is interpreted and taken as such. The referent for "eat my flesh" is "believe," with the salient feature of the comparison being the means of attaining what is necessary for life (eating food / believing in Christ), and so it is interpreted and taken as such.

You are free, I suppose, to argue that "believe" is a metaphor. I'm not sure why you would adopt such a view or what exegetical grounds you would have for pursuing it, but I doubt either one of us is terribly concerned about your exegetical warrant for that interpretation. I've provided mine in sufficient detail in the link.


First, my apologies. In perfect sincerity I did not mean to imply you are stupid; nor are non-Catholics.

Second, I consider you one of the more brilliant folks here. Seriously. So I certainly don’t mean to imply a lack of intellect with you either.

However, I was illustrating the inconsistencies in your thought. On one hand something is a metaphor and on another its not.

Either the verb “eat” means to literally “eat” and the verb “believe” means to literally “believe”, or they don’t. At which point is something metaphorical and something not?

By all appearances that classification as to literal or metaphorical appears to depend on your faith tradition.

So when I mention that I do not presume to have eternal security and that you, most charitably explain that you do and that I should as well, please understand your belief is from the prism of your faith and not a consistent view with scripture.....but it is consistent with your faith tradition.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:50 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
    `Per me si va ne la città dolente,
    per me si va ne l'etterno dolore,
    per me si va tra la perduta gente.

    Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore;
    fecemi la divina podestate,
    la somma sapïenza e 'l primo amore.

    Dinanzi a me non fuor cose create
    se non etterne, e io etterno duro.
    Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate'.

----------------------

    I am the way into the city of woe,
    I am the way into eternal pain,
    I am the way to go among the lost.

    Justice caused my high architect to move;
    Divine omnipotence created me,
    The highest wisdom, and the primal love.

    Before me there were no created things
    But those that last forever--as do I.
    Abandon all hope you who enter here.

Esolen translation.

Who says this? Hell? Weren't there any created things before hell?

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:58 pm 
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If I had to guess, its from Dante’s Infero. But I have no idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:24 pm 
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My problem is w/the Catholic apologetic response to this, they claim those disciples understood Christ correctly and Jesus let them go knowing their eternal destiny was at stake...I don't think so. I don't believe they had a clue what Jesus was talking about, no more than Peter did. They were thinking cannibalism, "how can this man give us his flesh to eat?" They had no idea of "sacramentally present", "transubstantiation" or anything like it. Further more, they were there for a free lunch, pretty obvious from the context. They were not interested in the Kingdom of God, rather they wanted Jesus to be King of their kingdom. As for Peter and the Apostles, they didn't even get His death and resurrection at that time, much less communion. If I might paraphrase Peter's reply; "Lord, we don't have a clue as to what you are talking about, but you have the words of eternal life, to whom shall we go?"

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:33 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
If I had to guess, its from Dante’s Infero. But I have no idea.

You are correct.

It's saying that Hell was the first thing created after those that were created at the very beginning, which is the angels.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:35 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
First, my apologies. In perfect sincerity I did not mean to imply you are stupid; nor are non-Catholics.

Second, I consider you one of the more brilliant folks here. Seriously. So I certainly don’t mean to imply a lack of intellect with you either.

However, I was illustrating the inconsistencies in your thought. On one hand something is a metaphor and on another its not.

Either the verb “eat” means to literally “eat” and the verb “believe” means to literally “believe”, or they don’t. At which point is something metaphorical and something not?

By all appearances that classification as to literal or metaphorical appears to depend on your faith tradition.

So when I mention that I do not presume to have eternal security and that you, most charitably explain that you do and that I should as well, please understand your belief is from the prism of your faith and not a consistent view with scripture.....but it is consistent with your faith tradition.

I appreciate the kind words. Look at the words I've underlined. There is a third option: that the word "eat" is not literal and the word "believe" is literal. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that either all words are figurative or all words are literal. You asked, "at which point is something metaphorical?" That's a perfectly valid question, and one I answer with respect to John 6 at the link provided. The short and more general answer is that something is metaphorical if it is being used as a rhetorical device to point explicitly to something else so as to make a point of comparison. When Jesus says the ones who have eternal life are the ones who eat His flesh, he's using metaphor. When He says the ones who have eternal life are the ones who believe in Him, He's being "literal." Again, when He says that He is the door and the light, He's using metaphor. When He says to forgive others, he's being "literal."

Final note: I am not getting my reading from my theology. I explained in the previous link where I'm getting my reading. The reading I'm suggesting is the one demanded by the narrative structure of the text. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with my faith tradition. It has everything to do with the actual reading of John 6.

fakeedit:

And pro-zak, that's a good assessment, I think, of what's actually going on in the chapter. Part of the point is that the crowds left and the apostles didn't because the apostles believed (with the exception of Judas) and the crowds didn't. I actually agree with Catholic apologists that John has put this story here as a theology reflection on the Eucharist. I just think that John sees the Eucharist as a reminder of this moment and as the central metaphor of faith . . . that is, for John, Jesus is giving us a way to act out our faith in a very, very deep way, and in a way that ties both to this moment in Jesus' earthly ministry as well as to the covenantal history of Israel and all of this to Jesus' own proclamation that faith in Him as Messiah is how we obtain eternal life. But I suppose that's just the non-Catholic apologetic response. ;)

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:56 pm 
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St Augustine said on the Bread of Life discourse, "Why do you make ready your tooth and your belly? Only believe, and you have eaten already." This, I think, gives since some sort of strength to the Jack's position. (And in English it rhymes, too!)

Perhaps our Lord refers both to faith and to the Eucharist.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
St Augustine said on the Bread of Life discourse, "Why do you make ready your tooth and your belly? Only believe, and you have eaten already." This, I think, gives since some sort of strength to the Jack's position. (And in English it rhymes, too!)

Perhaps our Lord refers both to faith and to the Eucharist.


But didn't he say that in the King's English?

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:01 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Denise Dee seems to forget that we have Christ as Mediator.

I think it's more fundamental than that. The reason she can't make chicken soup (understand eternal damnation) is not just that she has added too little salt (the role of Christ). It is that she pours lots of maple syrup (univocal love) and yogurt (conversion after death). Lack of salt is the least of the soup's problems. You can't repair or redeem that soup by adding more salt because she has poured maple syrup and yogurt into it.


:yes:

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:50 am 
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Best to make another bowl of soup.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:33 am 
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Pro-Zak wrote:
Best to make another bowl of soup.

God on the Day of Judgment wrote:
Image

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:38 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
St Augustine said on the Bread of Life discourse, "Why do you make ready your tooth and your belly? Only believe, and you have eaten already." This, I think, gives since some sort of strength to the Jack's position. (And in English it rhymes, too!)

Perhaps our Lord refers both to faith and to the Eucharist.

Don't make me agree with Augustine. That's almost as bad as making agree with D . . . no. I can't even type it.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am 
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theJack wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
St Augustine said on the Bread of Life discourse, "Why do you make ready your tooth and your belly? Only believe, and you have eaten already." This, I think, gives since some sort of strength to the Jack's position. (And in English it rhymes, too!)

Perhaps our Lord refers both to faith and to the Eucharist.

Don't make me agree with Augustine. That's almost as bad as making agree with D . . . no. I can't even type it.


:laughhard

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:44 pm 
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Reading all of the good-intentioned back and forth - literal or believe - is interesting but gives me some anxiety.

How reassuring it is to believe, and to know that the Church has the authority to teach, and the command to pass it down.
From Christ's teaching it, and institution of the Eucharist, and bestowing the power upon his Apostles to consecrate it.
For our participation in the perpetual Sacrifice. 1 Cor 10:16
Then and now.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:16 pm 
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Notnew wrote:
Reading all of the good-intentioned back and forth - literal or believe - is interesting but gives me some anxiety.

How reassuring it is to believe, and to know that the Church has the authority to teach, and the command to pass it down.
From Christ's teaching it, and institution of the Eucharist, and bestowing the power upon his Apostles to consecrate it.
For our participation in the perpetual Sacrifice. 1 Cor 10:16
Then and now.


Amen!


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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
St Augustine said on the Bread of Life discourse, "Why do you make ready your tooth and your belly? Only believe, and you have eaten already." This, I think, gives since some sort of strength to the Jack's position. (And in English it rhymes, too!)

Perhaps our Lord refers both to faith and to the Eucharist.


One could also argue Augustine was making a bigger point about where our hearts lie first, no?

In the OT it is stated that God does not desire our sacrifice (Psalm 51), but a clean and steadfast heart. Did the Psalmist mean that the OT sacrifice was to then stop? No. David was saying God desires our hearts to be right first before we approach the altar.

Could Augustine not be saying something similar, that we should believe first?

Regardless, we'll go round and round about whether John 6 is literal or metaphor because at the heart of it, most people's interpretation of scripture comes from tradition. TheJack won't admit it, but I will.

I found many years ago that the Catholic tradition made much more sense with the interpretation of John 6 and as it connects with the rest of scripture. I became Catholic for a few reasons, primary was the reality of the Eucharist and what true worship is about (sacrifice); the totality of scripture supports this view. I can read what the earliest Church Fathers believed and find that same interpretation. I also find the reasoning solid and consistent.

I find the mental gymnastics of those who don't take John 6 literally, well, highly unconvincing at best and disappointing at worst. There are so many other parts of scripture that I can truly understand their interpretation of scripture and don't find that view to be a twisted set of faulty logic - I can see their position, while respectfully disagreeing with it. But not so with John 6.

I once read Asimov's book "The Planet that Wasn't". I wasn't particularly religious and started exploring his atheism. He, (paraphrased and going off memory) when asked why he rejects many of the logical arguments for the existence of God said, "....those arguments are based on assumptions and therefore, are faulty."

For years I didn't understand what he meant, that the arguments are based on assumptions. I know now he was referring to the premises of an arguement. How those premises are formed can look like assumption-making and therefore, make the reasoning for the existence of God flawed. He was mistaken, but I think I get now what he meant.

I think the non-Catholic interpretation of John 6 as not being literal is based on the premise that, "Jesus wasn't really being literal, because well, He couldn't have been literal. It makes no sense. There's no way Jesus could give himself as food - people can't do that. God wouldn't do that. At communion the bread and wine don't become His body and blood, because that makes no sense. There's no reason for Him to do that because He died once and for all. Therefore, how else do I make sense of what He's saying? He must have meant it figuratively; that we are to believe in Him. That's what He means by 'eat and drink'. "

Now I have way over-simplified how the non-Catholic performs the exegesis. But, at the heart of it, they read the passage with zero intent on seeing if its meaning should be that we are to literally "eat His body and drink His blood."

When I became Catholic I didn't think that's what the passage meant. Not in the least. And I would have never have studied the Bible trying to prove that's what it does mean. So I get it.

So we can go back and forth until the trumpet blows, but I just don't see how non-Catholics can perform the mental gymnastics around John 6 and stay on the balance beam. It just doesn't work.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to an Orthodox Critic on Hell and the Fathers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
I think the non-Catholic interpretation of John 6 as not being literal is based on the premise that, "Jesus wasn't really being literal, because well, He couldn't have been literal. It makes no sense. There's no way Jesus could give himself as food - people can't do that. God wouldn't do that. At communion the bread and wine don't become His body and blood, because that makes no sense. There's no reason for Him to do that because He died once and for all. Therefore, how else do I make sense of what He's saying? He must have meant it figuratively; that we are to believe in Him. That's what He means by 'eat and drink'. "

Now I have way over-simplified how the non-Catholic performs the exegesis. But, at the heart of it, they read the passage with zero intent on seeing if its meaning should be that we are to literally "eat His body and drink His blood."

You haven't over-simplified my exegesis. You've absolutely butchered it by substituting an argument I think is patently ridiculous for the argument I actually hold. I make no arguments whatsoever about whether or not Jesus could give Himself for food. Nor do I argue about whether or not it "makes sense" or about Jesus not needing to do so, especially because He "died once for all." I'm not interested in that type of sophistry.

I've said it a million times - my position is based on exegetical principles applied to a large chunk of text. It has nothing to do with preexisting theology or arguments about what God could or is obligated to do.

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