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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:00 am 
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TheJack, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't realise that your "new favorite insult" is an extremely derogatory and offensive word which demeans homosexuals, in Britain at least, it was always offensive but even more so now with increasing awareness, it's like using the 'n' word in America.

If I said "I think the 'n' word in all its derivatives might be my new favorite insult", I'm sure you would want to put me right.


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:59 am 
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I always appreciate new information. With that said, while I have no reason to doubt that people find the word offensive, it doesn't affect my appreciation for it. That all is part of a much larger conversation about the "pc culture" and language police, which is only a not-so-thinly veiled version of thought police. Moreover, if we're talking about what people take offense at, I would find it offensive to link "poof" with "the n word" in any way as if there were any sort of moral equivalency between the early American chattel slavery to which blacks were subjected on the one hand and discrimination against homosexuals on the other. Anyone who even thinks that such a comparison is in any way at all appropriate ought to be deeply ashamed of themselves. As one who actually is American and lives out and understands the impacts of that horror and the moral stain on our nation, I would strongly advise you against such inappropriate comparisons.

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:52 am 
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It Ain't Half Hot Mum, a BBC comedy show of the 70's, I believe, has indeed fallen victim to the Thought Police. Apparently, is is not reshown in the UK, though it is in other Anglophone countries, because it is deemed politically incorrect. Two complaints are that the bearer, Rangi Ram, was played by non-Indian, and that the language was homophobic. One of the writers has said that, " Of course, it is also the show that we're not allowed to talk about any more. You might as well be in Stalin’s Russia. You don’t want to upset anyone".

It is an innocuous period comedy that has been blacklisted by the La-De-Dah PC Brigade that seems to run British entertainment. Offense is found where offense is sought. Which means that you can target Nancy Boys, one of my favorite innocent characterizations, in your riposte.

BTW, two of the actors had a No. 1 song hit in the UK. Listen to Don Estelle's voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10dmK7O-KSY

I wonder when obsessive PC compulsion will become identified by the APA as a mental illness.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Last edited by Highlander on Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:38 am 
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Many characters of Mind Your Language weren't played by the "correct" nationality.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:03 pm 
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theJack wrote:
I always appreciate new information. With that said, while I have no reason to doubt that people find the word offensive, it doesn't affect my appreciation for it. That all is part of a much larger conversation about the "pc culture" and language police, which is only a not-so-thinly veiled version of thought police. Moreover, if we're talking about what people take offense at, I would find it offensive to link "poof" with "the n word" in any way as if there were any sort of moral equivalency between the early American chattel slavery to which blacks were subjected on the one hand and discrimination against homosexuals on the other. Anyone who even thinks that such a comparison is in any way at all appropriate ought to be deeply ashamed of themselves. As one who actually is American and lives out and understands the impacts of that horror and the moral stain on our nation, I would strongly advise you against such inappropriate comparisons.


Well I'm glad to hear you didn't realise the word is so offensive. I thought it seemed out of character for you, and you wouldn't deliberately be so insensitive. Anyone using that word as an "insult" would be regarded as a very immature and/or extremely rude homophobe.

I didn't say it was the exact equivalent of the 'n' word in terms of offensiveness, but just that both words are now considered very offensive whereas in the past it was a bit different. Like the 'n' word, "poof" was generally always an offensive word when used as an insult but even more so now with increasing awareness. Highlander's YouTube clip of It Ain't Half Hot Mum, where you heard the word used, is from about 45 years ago, it was thought acceptable enough to be said and broadcast by the BBC then, in the 1970s, but definitely not now, similar in the way that the 'n' word is more unacceptable now than it used to be. For example, in the 1955 film The Dam Busters, based on the true story of the successful bombing of German dams in 1943, there is a dog called N----- belonging to Royal Air Force Wing Commander Guy Gibson and the name of the dog is used as a codeword. Agatha Christie wrote a detective novel in 1939 entitled Ten Little N-----s which was later renamed. Mark Twain used the 'n' word in some of his novels. There is a children's counting rhyme widely recited in school playgrounds in Britain, I've been reliably told, until as recently as the 1960s, "Eeny, meeney, miney, mo, Catch a n----- by the toe" which has now been changed to "Catch a tigger by the toe". The original would not be tolerated in school playgrounds today. And so on.

So the point is that whatever about the past, both words are now regarded as very offensive as insults and can have an impact on the mental wellbeing of those who are on the receiving end of such demeaning language.


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Mark Twain used the 'n' word in some of his novels.

Leave Sam and Jim ... and Huck ... out of this. They can fend for themselves. Huck Finn is a direct attack on racism .... most especially for its era. But understanding that requires something other than a superficial understanding of the book. And the ability to look beyond the current blacklisting of it and other classics of literature.

Denise Dee wrote:
... an impact on the mental wellbeing of those who are on the receiving end of such demeaning language.

I guess this lets me rest my case. Utopia in the macro coupled with utopia in the micro. I doubt that real men and women can't handle a few humorous and guileless transgressions into the minefield of well being ... and self-esteem ... and victimhood.

Upon reflection, I suppose we need a safe space thread.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:44 pm 
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Distantly related, I just wanted to note that I've been listening to HP Lovecraft for a few weeks now--listening because audio books let me hear the tales while I do work around the house. ;) Anyway, while culturally I find his obvious racism repulsive, I am very glad that the narrator has chosen not to "fix" Lovecraft's language. Products should be allowed to represent the time in which they are created, and that's doubly true of art.

So I've finished with the Whisperer in Darkness. Now on to The Dreams in the Witch House!

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:52 pm 
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theJack wrote:
Distantly related, I just wanted to note that I've been listening to HP Lovecraft for a few weeks now--listening because audio books let me hear the tales while I do work around the house. ;) Anyway, while culturally I find his obvious racism repulsive, I am very glad that the narrator has chosen not to "fix" Lovecraft's language. Products should be allowed to represent the time in which they are created, and that's doubly true of art.

So I've finished with the Whisperer in Darkness. Now on to The Dreams in the Witch House!


I'm an old HPL collector (starting around 1966, now own even some books by other authors that had been owned by him). Some indication can be found that he outgrew, in time, his "lesser breeds/races" fixation.

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


Last edited by GKC on Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:58 pm 
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In his written works or simply later in life? So far I've only read (or listened to) "The Temple," "The Rats in the Walls," and then in the Cthulhu Mythos, "The Nameless City", "The Hound", "The Festival", "The Call of Cthulhu", "The Dunwich Horror", and "The Whisperer in Darkness." The last of these, Wikipedia tells me, was written in '30, so seven years before his death. There are still some indications in TWiD, though it doesn't seem nearly as pronounced as in some of the earlier works. The story definitely puts forward a high view of the learned Englishman and seems to disparage rural, "simple" folk. But that could also just be a device for telling the story . . . and a good story it is.

If only someone had told him not to use adjectives quite so liberally.

edit:

As an aside, this little phase I'm in was set off by reading "The Hounds of Tindalos" by FB Long. Now that was a good story, and interesting to hear in some places how Lovecraft adopted some of the elements of the story into his own mythos.

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:44 pm 
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theJack wrote:
In his written works or simply later in life? So far I've only read (or listened to) "The Temple," "The Rats in the Walls," and then in the Cthulhu Mythos, "The Nameless City", "The Hound", "The Festival", "The Call of Cthulhu", "The Dunwich Horror", and "The Whisperer in Darkness." The last of these, Wikipedia tells me, was written in '30, so seven years before his death. There are still some indications in TWiD, though it doesn't seem nearly as pronounced as in some of the earlier works. The story definitely puts forward a high view of the learned Englishman and seems to disparage rural, "simple" folk. But that could also just be a device for telling the story . . . and a good story it is.

If only someone had told him not to use adjectives quite so liberally.

edit:

As an aside, this little phase I'm in was set off by reading "The Hounds of Tindalos" by FB Long. Now that was a good story, and interesting to hear in some places how Lovecraft adopted some of the elements of the story into his own mythos.


Try "Dagon".

In his later life. I own a large dollop of bios/criticisms, fanzines and other commentary. Mostly (say it with me), not readily to hand.

Extolling the high Anglo and disparaging the lesser classes was one of his lifelong poses. The well known sketch of HPL by Virgil Finlay illustrates the idea. But (per memory) he backed off some of his more odious ideas, as revealed, not merely in his fiction, but in his non-fiction, as in the stuff he contributed to amateur press associations, and newsletters. Much of that I own, but it is NRTH. Naturally.

There did develop a lot of swapping of references and constructing of awful tomes by the group that started coalescing around the "Mythos", and everyone would solemnly add the new creations to the eldritch library of horrific history and unspeakable stuff and the cursed pantheon of unpronounceable entities and lately elected members of the House of Representatives. The systematizing August Derleth, author of such stuff himself and publisher of Lovecraft in his Arkham House Press (which I collect) tried to balance out and expand the original Mythos, balancing the Great Old Ones with the Elder Gods. Generally a weaker tea.

You have stumbled on another of my hobby areas.

As to adjectives, I await the point at which you have read enough to understand why one says that he was the master of the first person hysterical voice.

_________________
"I tell you naught for your comfort,
Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


Last edited by GKC on Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Mark Twain used the 'n' word in some of his novels.

Leave Sam and Jim ... and Huck ... out of this. They can fend for themselves. Huck Finn is a direct attack on racism .... most especially for its era. But understanding that requires something other than a superficial understanding of the book. And the ability to look beyond the current blacklisting of it and other classics of literature.

Denise Dee wrote:
... an impact on the mental wellbeing of those who are on the receiving end of such demeaning language.

I guess this lets me rest my case. Utopia in the macro coupled with utopia in the micro. I doubt that real men and women can't handle a few humorous and guileless transgressions into the minefield of well being ... and self-esteem ... and victimhood.

Upon reflection, I suppose we need a safe space thread.


And I won't let you in mine.

_________________
"I tell you naught for your comfort,
Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:04 pm 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Denise Dee wrote:
theJack wrote:
I always appreciate new information. With that said, while I have no reason to doubt that people find the word offensive, it doesn't affect my appreciation for it. That all is part of a much larger conversation about the "pc culture" and language police, which is only a not-so-thinly veiled version of thought police. Moreover, if we're talking about what people take offense at, I would find it offensive to link "poof" with "the n word" in any way as if there were any sort of moral equivalency between the early American chattel slavery to which blacks were subjected on the one hand and discrimination against homosexuals on the other. Anyone who even thinks that such a comparison is in any way at all appropriate ought to be deeply ashamed of themselves. As one who actually is American and lives out and understands the impacts of that horror and the moral stain on our nation, I would strongly advise you against such inappropriate comparisons.


Well I'm glad to hear you didn't realise the word is so offensive. I thought it seemed out of character for you, and you wouldn't deliberately be so insensitive. Anyone using that word as an "insult" would be regarded as a very immature and/or extremely rude homophobe.

I didn't say it was the exact equivalent of the 'n' word in terms of offensiveness, but just that both words are now considered very offensive whereas in the past it was a bit different. Like the 'n' word, "poof" was generally always an offensive word when used as an insult but even more so now with increasing awareness. Highlander's YouTube clip of It Ain't Half Hot Mum, where you heard the word used, is from about 45 years ago, it was thought acceptable enough to be said and broadcast by the BBC then, in the 1970s, but definitely not now, similar in the way that the 'n' word is more unacceptable now than it used to be. For example, in the 1955 film The Dam Busters, based on the true story of the successful bombing of German dams in 1943, there is a dog called N----- belonging to Royal Air Force Wing Commander Guy Gibson and the name of the dog is used as a codeword. Agatha Christie wrote a detective novel in 1939 entitled Ten Little N-----s which was later renamed. Mark Twain used the 'n' word in some of his novels. There is a children's counting rhyme widely recited in school playgrounds in Britain, I've been reliably told, until as recently as the 1960s, "Eeny, meeney, miney, mo, Catch a n----- by the toe" which has now been changed to "Catch a tigger by the toe". The original would not be tolerated in school playgrounds today. And so on.

So the point is that whatever about the past, both words are now regarded as very offensive as insults and can have an impact on the mental wellbeing of those who are on the receiving end of such demeaning language.


I doubt many people knew that, about the dog. I did. The attitude toward the word, in the movie, went back and forth in recent years and is still up in the air. So to speak, per wiki. Dame Agatha's title morphed twice, the first time in 1940, for the American edition. The original title may easily be found in reference material on classic mysteries, or Dame Agatha, of which I have a plethora. The configuration of the ink on the page seems harmless enough, though the word is obviously a puissant force, even today. Only it's vaguest outlines may be allowed to be seen.

And words have such power as people give to them. That can be good or bad.

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Yea, naught for your desire,
Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:50 pm 
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ThomisticCajunAggie wrote:
I'm responding not because I'm going to change anyone's mind, but because I think to allow the phrase "myth of mental illness" to go unchallenged would be irresponsible. Mental illness is very much a real thing and I've seen it destroy people firsthand through no fault of their own. If you know someone who is struggling with mental illness, don't tell them it's not real (or just to think on the bright side or whatever). Tell them to get help, and then help them get help if you are able.

the problem is (for some of us anyhow): What exactly is "mental illness" and more importantly WHO gets to decide? someone who finished college and got a degree? Somehow thatdoesn't seem to be sufficient esp in light of the fact that many people with "issues" suffer because .. for one, a lot of people are afraid of those who are said to have a mental illness. And that alone can destroy someone's life..


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
I
Being a man does not mean you should be so sto
Being a man does not mean you should disrespect homosexual men. Being a man does not mean you don't treat homosexuals with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.

And so on.

Being a man does not mean you need to conform to the stereotype of "traditional masculinity" with all it's harmful aspects.

i agree for the most part except that respecting such groups as homosexuals does not in ANY way whatsoever mean we should accept that someone is living that "lifestyle" That lifestyle is extremely detrimental to anyone doing so and of course leads to ETERNAL "detrimental"

so the liberals are right that we should love everyone (ha ha to THEM actually doing that, however) and yet they don't have the first clue what REAL LOVE actually is ----so forget about them.

I will re-phrase: True Christians are right that we should love everyone (ha ha to them actually doing that..), but accepting egregious sin because we "have to love them" is just bogus and unChristian and a denial of Truth (aka Jesus Christ)


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:25 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
I
Being a man does not mean you should be so sto
Being a man does not mean you should disrespect homosexual men. Being a man does not mean you don't treat homosexuals with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.

And so on.

Being a man does not mean you need to conform to the stereotype of "traditional masculinity" with all it's harmful aspects.

i agree for the most part except that respecting such groups as homosexuals does not in ANY way whatsoever mean we should accept that someone is living that "lifestyle" That lifestyle is extremely detrimental to anyone doing so and of course leads to ETERNAL "detrimental"

so the liberals are right that we should love everyone (ha ha to THEM actually doing that, however) and yet they don't have the first clue what REAL LOVE actually is ----so forget about them.

I will re-phrase: True Christians are right that we should love everyone (ha ha to them actually doing that..), but accepting egregious sin because we "have to love them" is just bogus and unChristian and a denial of Truth (aka Jesus Christ)

Nobody said we should accept egregious sin because we "have to love them".

Mother Teresa said:

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."

Hate the sin and love the sinner


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:59 pm 
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Quote:
Mother Teresa said:

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."

Widely attributed to her, but I am not aware of any source substantiating it.

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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:10 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
I
Being a man does not mean you should be so sto
Being a man does not mean you should disrespect homosexual men. Being a man does not mean you don't treat homosexuals with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.

And so on.

Being a man does not mean you need to conform to the stereotype of "traditional masculinity" with all it's harmful aspects.

i agree for the most part except that respecting such groups as homosexuals does not in ANY way whatsoever mean we should accept that someone is living that "lifestyle" That lifestyle is extremely detrimental to anyone doing so and of course leads to ETERNAL "detrimental"

so the liberals are right that we should love everyone (ha ha to THEM actually doing that, however) and yet they don't have the first clue what REAL LOVE actually is ----so forget about them.

I will re-phrase: True Christians are right that we should love everyone (ha ha to them actually doing that..), but accepting egregious sin because we "have to love them" is just bogus and unChristian and a denial of Truth (aka Jesus Christ)

Nobody said we should accept egregious sin because we "have to love them".

Mother Teresa said:

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."

Hate the sin and love the sinner


if you "love someone" a particular way, say, by NOT telling them they are wrong, you not loving them properly

so saying the word Love means nada


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:04 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
Mother Teresa said:

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."

Widely attributed to her, but I am not aware of any source substantiating it.

That seems to be the case. I like to be accurate so thanks. I did briefly google-check it first, and found nobody disputing it.


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 Post subject: Re: "the myth of mental illness"
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:10 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Highlander wrote:
I
Being a man does not mean you should be so sto
Being a man does not mean you should disrespect homosexual men. Being a man does not mean you don't treat homosexuals with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.

And so on.

Being a man does not mean you need to conform to the stereotype of "traditional masculinity" with all it's harmful aspects.

i agree for the most part except that respecting such groups as homosexuals does not in ANY way whatsoever mean we should accept that someone is living that "lifestyle" That lifestyle is extremely detrimental to anyone doing so and of course leads to ETERNAL "detrimental"

so the liberals are right that we should love everyone (ha ha to THEM actually doing that, however) and yet they don't have the first clue what REAL LOVE actually is ----so forget about them.

I will re-phrase: True Christians are right that we should love everyone (ha ha to them actually doing that..), but accepting egregious sin because we "have to love them" is just bogus and unChristian and a denial of Truth (aka Jesus Christ)

Nobody said we should accept egregious sin because we "have to love them".

Mother Teresa said:

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."

Hate the sin and love the sinner


if you "love someone" a particular way, say, by NOT telling them they are wrong, you not loving them properly

so saying the word Love means nada

If you tell someone they are wrong without showing any love towards them, why should they listen to you or believe you when you tell them they are wrong? Maybe you are the one who is wrong so why should they listen to you?

So, for example, if you want to persuade a homosexual that a sexually permissive lifestyle is wrong, and at the same time you don't love and respect that person because of what you perceive to be his sinful lifestyle, why should he listen to you rather than listen to people who show him kindness and love?


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