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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:20 am 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Why is what I did worse than the sins you commit? Would you think it unkind of people not to tell you that the things you do, which they think are sins, are an abomination?

Maybe for a variety of reasons, they are not worse than the sins I commit. For one, I know more by virtue of having learned about the Catholic faith, so I certainly am not ignorant when I sin.

But the nature of sodomy cries out to heaven for vengeance, because like the other sins of that nature it tends to threaten either the human race directly, or threaten the means by which the human race can be preserved (reproduction)



I think it goes deeper than that, it cries out for vengeance because it is an abominable act, in that it desecrates marriage and the image of God in man.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:07 am 
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Let's grant the enormity of sexual sins. If gherkin is to be believed, there are sins traditionally considered worse, the relevant example being avarice. And it seems clear to me that a lot of the corruption in the church is rooted in avarice. Politically, the vice of the Right is avarice, so it is a bit rich to hear them lecturing us on family virtues, like a murderer complaining about theft. So yeah, planks and splinters . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I think the Pope and all Christians should love LGBT people in the way that Jesus loved people.

You mean with millstones (Mt 18 6) and lashing (Jn 2 15)?

No, with loving kindness. Matthew 18:6 and John 2:15 have absolutely nothing to do with LGBT people. It surprises me that you would want to misrepresent and pervert the loving message of Jesus in this way.
I'm assuming that Jack means that some 'LGBT people' do indeed put 'stumbling blocks' before some of those who believe in him.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:44 pm 
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theJack wrote:
\Politically, the vice of the Right is avarice,


In the caricature of the left, yes, but not in reality. That's a little like saying that 'the vice of the left is that they are all homosexual atheists who are constantly performing partial-birth abortions'

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:07 pm 
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I'm soooooo not left. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:17 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
I'm soooooo not left. :fyi:


Who said anyone was left?

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Well, the Jack was referring to a post of mine where I said the Republicans divinize avarice.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Doom wrote:
theJack wrote:
\Politically, the vice of the Right is avarice,


In the caricature of the left, yes, but not in reality. That's a little like saying that 'the vice of the left is that they are all homosexual atheists who are constantly performing partial-birth abortions'

Who said anything about "all"? That's a poor rendering of the argument. My point stands. But I'll say regardless that it's not a caricature, much less one of Tom the left. It is generally true.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:41 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Well, the Jack was referring to a post of mine where I said the Republicans divinize avarice.

Who is this Jack of whom you speak

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:54 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Well, the Jack was referring to a post of mine where I said the Republicans divinize avarice.

I'm still fairly standoffish about the idea. I will grant that for many I have talked to, perhaps the vast majority, there didn't seem to be an acceptance of the concept of morality and justice associated with wages and prices for products. They say things like if someone will work for such a wage or pay such a price, then it's OK.

I don't think that translates to the concepts behind a free market being rooted in avarice, nor that it translates into a worse deal for the people regarding wages and prices.

Back to the topic, I think it is absurd to use as an example the old Testament punishment for homosexuality as an example of Christians being unkind to LGBT people. It's ridiculous. No one ever complains about how mean we are to men who cheat on their wives because the Old Testament says they should be stoned to death. Or all the other things that carried the death penalty.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:33 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Well, the Jack was referring to a post of mine where I said the Republicans divinize avarice.

I'm still fairly standoffish about the idea. I will grant that for many I have talked to, perhaps the vast majority, there didn't seem to be an acceptance of the concept of morality and justice associated with wages and prices for products. They say things like if someone will work for such a wage or pay such a price, then it's OK.

I don't think that translates to the concepts behind a free market being rooted in avarice, nor that it translates into a worse deal for the people regarding wages and prices.

Republicans aren't interested in free markets. :fyi: But say they were really capitalists in the full sense: then it wouldn't even be open to debate whether they divinize avarice. Smith explains it very clearly for us in one of the most famous soundbites about capitalism there is:

Quote:
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages...


Note that I have already granted in introducing it that this is a soundbite and there's a lot more to the story than this. But however you want to nuance capitalism, it does indeed turn on this idea at heart.

Now, our contemporary crony capitalism is just a more vicious and statist variety of capitalism, and it still aims fundamentally at filthy lucre, not at the common good.

But we're probably not going to settle this disagreement here. :)

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:33 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Well, the Jack was referring to a post of mine where I said the Republicans divinize avarice.

Who is this Jack of whom you speak

the Jack. :fyi:

I add a space because the overwhelming force of my aesthetic judgment demands it of me. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:46 am 
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Coincidentally, I was reading some of Who Owns America (check out who wrote this review!) this morning and came across this passage in Willis Fisher's "Small-Town Middle-Westerner."

Quote:
The fault of the divines of the Bible Belt is not that they worship a savage bush-league Jehovah, but rather that they have sold out even him to the religion of success, to the elevation of our great wise and good rich men. Their very violence against the sins of the flesh is only compensation for their failure to be sufficiently violent against the deadlier sins of avarice and arrogance. [note: I've never seen arrogance coming up higher on any traditional list of sins than lust, but let's accept the point for its rhetorical value and move on.] But how many clergymen, small-town or metropolitan, American or foreign, Catholic or Protestant, are unspotted with tar from that brush? In what happy land and era has Christianity been free from that kind of betrayal? When and where have there not been honorable exceptions?


I of course don't mean to say that clergymen should not denounce the sins of the flesh, including obviously homosexual acts. I also think it's worth noting in this context that the loud voices (like the Holy Father's) complaining about how Christians are obsessed with sexual matters and abortion and whatnot do conveniently overlook the fact that we're not raising these issues in some vacuum because we're fired up about them as such--we raise them because common decency (to say nothing of Christian morality) has been suffering from violent and sustained assault by the sexual libertines and we're attempting, no doubt in utter futility, to defend these precious things. But I do think that since we long since decided culturally to let avarice take the reins, and since we've gotten all religiously comfortable with it (the local pastor, who ignores the issue; but the universal Church herself, has given all appearance of simply overturning dogma on things like usury because, after all, usury is very nearly the basis of our whole economy) it can hardly come as a surprise that the other deadly sins have lined up to have their way as well.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:40 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Republicans aren't interested in free markets. But say they were really capitalists in the full sense: then it wouldn't even be open to debate whether they divinize avarice. Smith explains it very clearly for us in one of the most famous soundbites about capitalism there is: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities, but of their advantages..."


The dictionary defines avarice as "excessive or insatiable desire for wealth or gain." New Advent defines it the same, but adds "Its special malice, broadly speaking, lies in that it makes the getting and keeping of money, possessions, and the like, a purpose in itself to live for."

I can't say I disagree that many elected Republicans aren't classical capitalists. They seem mighty fond of corporate bailouts and assistance. My quibble is the mischaracterization of Adam Smith's quote. The words are accurate, but to claim this is akin to avarice seems overly broad. We all want what's best for us, and who better to provide for ourselves than . . . ourselves?

Looked from another angle, how many people are hurt by well-meaning policies of the government? I'll take my chances with a genuine capitalist over some liberal do-gooder.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:29 am 
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Riverboat wrote:

I can't say I disagree that many elected Republicans aren't classical capitalists.

I can't say I'm not trying not to refrain from making a response without using more negatives than you have :sick: :laughhard

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
My quibble is the mischaracterization of Adam Smith's quote. The words are accurate, but to claim this is akin to avarice seems overly broad. We all want what's best for us, and who better to provide for ourselves than . . . ourselves?

I'll grant the point, but also agree that it is a quibble:the point is whether it's possible to imagine the establishment of a system based explicitly and wholeheartedly on self-interest, self-love and the seeking of one's own advantage that isn't an entrenchment of avarice at the cost of the common good. (Hint: no, it's not.)

Quote:
Looked from another angle, how many people are hurt by well-meaning policies of the government? I'll take my chances with a genuine capitalist over some liberal do-gooder.

Doesn't matter too much. They're all progressives. Pick your poison.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
I can't say I'm not trying not to refrain from making a response without using more negatives than you have

That's my roundabout way of saying the party as a whole is a bitter disappointment.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
I can't say I'm not trying not to refrain from making a response without using more negatives than you have

That's my roundabout way of saying the party as a whole is a bitter disappointment.

Why wouldn't it be? It was never founded nor (even presently) operated on the common good. Moreover, while embracing capitalism may have better short term results than embracing statism, that is only because statism is more wrong, insofar as it holds more false propositions about the nature of man, than capitalism. And yet capitalism is far from true in that same regard. So as the Republican party continues to (claim to) identify with capitalism, it identifies with its deeply spiritual errors as well. The result must be disappointment, political questions about two party systems and lesser of two evils aside.

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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Pope Francis 'Speaking about gay people in 2013, he said that "the key is for the church to welcome, not exclude and show mercy, not condemnation.'

Whereas in the Bible and during the Spanish Inquisition homosexuals were condemned and not shown mercy?

So is Pope Francis right on this issue?


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 Post subject: Re: LGBT split from Questioning Catholicism because of Pope
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:58 am 
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Riverboat wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
I can't say I'm not trying not to refrain from making a response without using more negatives than you have

That's my roundabout way of saying the party as a whole is a bitter disappointment.

Ah. English is not my first language.

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