Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 6 of 6   [ 112 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:14 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78207
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Quote:
The rite of exorcism is required for the sacramental.
Again, a question-begging statement. This is the point at issue, so you can't adduce it as evidence.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:40 pm 
Offline
Paladin
Paladin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:12 am
Posts: 6578
Location: Filii Tonitrui
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Quote:
The rite of exorcism is required for the sacramental.
Again, a question-begging statement. This is the point at issue, so you can't adduce it as evidence.


Are you sure you are not reading me wrong here (or I was not clear enough)?

In other words: the sacramental of an exorcism cannot exist without the ritual (prayers)of exorcism being performed.

This is what I thought you said yourself:

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The word "sacramental" refers both to physical objects and to certain rites (e.g., funerals, exorcisms). Not everything that can be said about one applies to the other.


CCC:

1673 When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism.



Again, to be clear:

Exorcism = sacramental (fact).
Exorcism = specific prayers/rite to be performed (fact).
Sacramental = specific physical form or rite (fact).

No begging the question here.

So, I can clearly say:

“The rite of exorcism [prayers/ritual] is required for the sacramental [of exorcism to exist].” (brackets added for clarity)

So basically, sacramentals do not magically manifest themselves. As you say, there must be physical attributes or a rite.

Hence the greater point: Since the new rite holy water lacks the necessary prayers/ritual of exorcism, then there is no sacramental of exorcism taking place (because again, the prayer is necessary for the sacramental of exorcism to exist).

_________________
-Alexander
"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:19 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39729
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
The question begging is concluding that there are benefits to exorcising the water that exist apart from or in addition to the constitutive blessing. The exorcism of the water that is part of the old rite of blessing might simply be part of the rite of blessing and not have any benefit beyond that conferred by the blessing. You might just as well argue that the old rite of baptism is more efficacious than the new because of the exorcism prayers or that the consecration at Mass in the old rite is more intrinsically valuable because of the sacrificial language of the old Offertory prayers.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:51 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:15 am
Posts: 224
Location: Off in the hills
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: KoC, Legion of Mary
Peregrinator wrote:
The question begging is concluding that there are benefits to exorcising the water that exist apart from or in addition to the constitutive blessing. The exorcism of the water that is part of the old rite of blessing might simply be part of the rite of blessing and not have any benefit beyond that conferred by the blessing. You might just as well argue that the old rite of baptism is more efficacious than the new because of the exorcism prayers or that the consecration at Mass in the old rite is more intrinsically valuable because of the sacrificial language of the old Offertory prayers.


All of this is unfortunately a hole many these days fall into. (I like many things about the Usus Antiquior but the Novus Ordo is absolutely the real sacrifice of Christ's Body and Blood)

Not like you can get double, or triple the Baptism....

_________________
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus-Ferdinand I


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:13 pm 
Offline
Paladin
Paladin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:12 am
Posts: 6578
Location: Filii Tonitrui
Religion: Catholic
Peregrinator wrote:
The question begging is concluding that there are benefits to exorcising the water that exist apart from or in addition to the constitutive blessing.



It is not begging the question since a sacramental cannot magically manifest itself without what is required. A piece of smooth metal cannot be a Miraculous Medal whilst retaining it's current smooth form - something has to happen first.

This is not begging the question, this is basic Catholicism.


Exorcism happens because of a ritual.

There is no ritual of exorcism in the new rite Holy Water.

Hence, there is no exorcism sacramental.





Quote:
The exorcism of the water that is part of the old rite of blessing might simply be part of the rite of blessing and not have any benefit beyond that conferred by the blessing.



That seems impossible as the thing to produce an exorcism sacramental is not present.


Quote:
You might just as well argue that the old rite of baptism is more efficacious than the new because of the exorcism prayers or that the consecration at Mass in the old rite is more intrinsically valuable because of the sacrificial language of the old Offertory prayers.


I am not saying that the sacramental of Holy Water intrinsically becomes different Holy Water - but rather it receives the sacramental of exorcism in addition. So, it's a variation of Holy Water because it's both blessed and exorcised, but the actual sacramental of Holy water in and of itself does not change. Sort of like having a St. Benedict medal fused with a crucifix. E.G. the old offertory prayers can yield additional grace, dispositions being equal, but it does not add value to the consecration in and of itself.




In short: Something must happen for a sacramental to exist. The sacramental of exorcism comes into existence because of a exorcism ritual. An exorcism ritual is not present with the new rite Holy Water. Hence, there is no exorcism sacramental.

_________________
-Alexander
"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:09 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78207
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
The sacramental of exorcism does not exist in the way that, say, a Miraculous Medal exists. You're using the term "sacramental" univocally when it's not strictly univocal in its uses.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:12 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 78207
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
BTW, I want to be clear (if I haven't been already): I am not arguing that you are certainly wrong. I am arguing that your case is not certainly right, nor even close.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:31 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39729
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Alexandros wrote:
It is not begging the question since a sacramental cannot magically manifest itself without what is required. A piece of smooth metal cannot be a Miraculous Medal whilst retaining it's current smooth form - something has to happen first.

What is the sacramental in this case? Is it the water? Is it something in the water?

Quote:
Hence, there is no exorcism sacramental.

Is an exorcism sacramental something one can carry around?

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:38 pm 
Offline
Paladin
Paladin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:12 am
Posts: 6578
Location: Filii Tonitrui
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The sacramental of exorcism does not exist in the way that, say, a Miraculous Medal exists. You're using the term "sacramental" univocally when it's not strictly univocal in its uses.


I have already stated that they do not exist in the same way, so I am not sure what you are trying to say here.


Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I am arguing that your case is not certainly right, nor even close.




How does an exorcism sacramental come to exist?

_________________
-Alexander
"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:38 pm 
Offline
Paladin
Paladin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:12 am
Posts: 6578
Location: Filii Tonitrui
Religion: Catholic
Peregrinator wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
It is not begging the question since a sacramental cannot magically manifest itself without what is required. A piece of smooth metal cannot be a Miraculous Medal whilst retaining it's current smooth form - something has to happen first.

What is the sacramental in this case? Is it the water? Is it something in the water?


Holy Water? Water is the physical attribute and then the required blessing. Is that what you mean?


Quote:
Quote:
Hence, there is no exorcism sacramental.

Is an exorcism sacramental something one can carry around?


It would appear so? An object is exorcised, so you can carry it around. If we are already presuming that new rite holy water has this, then we are already admitting it can be carried around.

But the most important question is: How does the sacramental of exorcism come to exist in the first place?

_________________
-Alexander
"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:25 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39729
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Alexandros wrote:
Holy Water? Water is the physical attribute and then the required blessing. Is that what you mean?

I mean, how does the sacramental of the exorcism rite persist in the water?

Quote:
It would appear so? An object is exorcised, so you can carry it around. If we are already presuming that new rite holy water has this, then we are already admitting it can be carried around.

An object is exorcised, but when you carry it around, are you carrying around an exorcism? If so we should just exorcise objects and forget about the role of exorcist in the Church.

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Traditional Exorcism Prayers Etc.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:39 pm 
Offline
Paladin
Paladin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:12 am
Posts: 6578
Location: Filii Tonitrui
Religion: Catholic
Peregrinator wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Holy Water? Water is the physical attribute and then the required blessing. Is that what you mean?

I mean, how does the sacramental of the exorcism rite persist in the water?


The rite itself cannot exist in the water, because those are prayers and ritual. It's strong an explicit endowment of warding off evil would remain, according to the prayer:

Quote:
God's creature, water, I cast out the demon from you in the name of God the Father almighty, in the name of Jesus Christ, His Son, our Lord, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. May you be a purified water, empowered to drive afar all power of the enemy, in fact, to root out and banish the enemy himself, along with his fallen angels.


I found this in the Catholic Encyclopedia, for whatever that is worth:

Quote:
The chief things formally exorcised in blessing are water, salt, oil, and these in turn are used in personal exorcisms, and in blessing or consecrating places (e.g. churches) and objects (e.g. altars, sacred vessels, church bells) connected with public worship, or intended for private devotion. Holy water, the sacramental with which the ordinary faithful are most familiar, is a mixture of exorcised water and exorcised salt; and in the prayer of blessing, God is besought to endow these material elements with a supernatural power of protecting those who use them with faith against all the attacks of the devil. This kind of indirect exorcism by means of exorcised objects is an extension of the original idea; but it introduces no new principle, and it has been used in the Church from the earliest ages.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm

This, of course, is in the context of the traditional Holy Water blessings.





Quote:
Quote:
It would appear so? An object is exorcised, so you can carry it around. If we are already presuming that new rite holy water has this, then we are already admitting it can be carried around.

An object is exorcised, but when you carry it around, are you carrying around an exorcism? If so we should just exorcise objects and forget about the role of exorcist in the Church.


If you are talking about carrying around the ritual in an object, then that is impossible. A blessing, or a ritual, in and of itself is a sacramental. But, the object that the blessing blesses may also be a sacramental as well.

St. Thomas appears to explain that an exorcism of a person is different than a sacramental-object’s power in spiritual warfare. This is specifically answered when he was dealing with baptism, exorcism, and holy water (traditional holy water):

Quote:
Objection 3. Further, Holy water was introduced in order to ward off the power of the demons. Therefore exorcism [before baptism] was not needed as a further remedy.

...


Reply to Objection 3. Holy water is used against the assaults of demons from without. But exorcisms are directed against those assaults of the demons which are from within. hence those who are exorcized are called energumens, as it were "laboring inwardly."



http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4071.htm

So, exorcised objects cannot replace exorcism itself.

Exorcised holy water can be considered an “indirect exorcism” because it wards off evil (“from without”), but not the ritual of exorcism itself because that already has taken place on the water. Exorcised water in an extension of exorcism; the water has received the sacramental exorcism to remove any claim by the devil on it and gives it to the service of God. Additionally, it endows it with the power to ward off evil explicitly and I might say forcefully with the ritual’s prayer.

This is not to say that non-exorcised sacramentals cannot help ward off evil, because everything good and holy can help do this. However, there is obvious advantage in spiritual warfare when using a St. Benedict medal over, say a St. Christopher medal. There is an obvious difference in an individual who prayers general prayers vs when he prays for something specific (dispositions being equal). If we go by what we know, then there should be an obvious difference in exorcised holy water vs non-exercised holy water.

_________________
-Alexander
"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 6 of 6   [ 112 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


Jump to: