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 Post subject: Art and morality
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:40 am 
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1. Is it sinful for a sculptor to make idols for worship?

2. Is it sinful to dance in traditional dances of non-Christian societies, with song lyrics that affirm the historicity of non-Christian legends?

3. Is it sinful to listen to songs with "taboo words" (eg Eminem) or have suggestive content?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:04 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
1. Is it sinful for a sculptor to make idols for worship?[/qquote]
Yes

Quote:
2. Is it sinful to dance in traditional dances of non-Christian societies, with song lyrics that affirm the historicity of non-Christian legends?

Depends (nature of the dance, context)

Quote:
3. Is it sinful to listen to songs with "taboo words" (eg Eminem) or have suggestive content?

These not-songs, but utter trash, are disordered for other reasons. Merely having offensive words or suggestive language does not make something sinful (otherwise most Latin poetry would be sinful to read, and even parts of the bible)

But rather, the noise they make is disordered and causes destruction of virtue. Music moves the soul. I don't think it is coincidence that many of the current generation acted like possessed people when exposed to beautiful music (it is one thing to not yet appreciate classical music, but you would think demons were screaming in pain... because they are)

Music orders the soul. Here I am speaking of the notes, not the lyrics. And we have several generations raised on increasingly disordered music. At least in the past some pop music had the qualities of folk music (the Band e.g.), but today it is much more disordered.

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:06 am 
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1 I would say that it is wrong. You would be making things knowing the use they will be put to. I would say that is material cooperation.

2 and 3 sound like matters of prudence to me. They aren't necessarily wrong, but at the same time not necessarily good either. I guess it depends. ETA: I am in agreement with the post above. In general, it's best to avoid such music, though I suppose you would have to take each piece on its own.

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:59 am 
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The Mosaic law allowed jewish craftsmen to make 'images' for money as long as they did not themselves worship them but not to marry spouses who worshipped idols.

Christianity is more ambiguous. It allows us freedom to make informed exceptions for reason foreign to religion but also urges us to seek greater purity habitually.

The catechism is unambiguous about participation in non-christian worship. However, we are not categorically forbidden to engage in unreligious yoga as exercise, but we are cautioned to not get too immersed in it. Constant contact with conductors to evil are needlessly putting ourselves in the way of temptation. Presumption.

Christians learn about greek Gods and consider their differences to christianity but we don't worship them. We don't celebrate feasts to Venus or Saturnalias.

I think there is an ethic for Christians in consuming and making art and it consists in emphasizing the good.
Consider: Dante and Waugh wrote about some fairly sinful people for the right reason, to show the evil.
Eric Rohmer and Kieslowski made films, with some nakedness, to re-present the Ten Commandments and Perversion.

I think the difference is in the glamorization of sin, to shock, vrs to educate (as in sin off-stage and consequences on stage). That is why Waugh's SSA portrayals are more aesthetically Christian than Petronius work on the orgies of the Romans.

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Besides - Eminem is NOT music. :x If you were asking about Cole Porter lyrics, then I'd say you had a valid question. :mrgreen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7NJ9ylAhos

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:09 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:15 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
1. Is it sinful for a sculptor to make idols for worship?

Yes


In case I was not clear; I am referring to sculptors making statues for sale to idolaters, he does not worship them himself.

Quote:
Quote:
2. Is it sinful to dance in traditional dances of non-Christian societies, with song lyrics that affirm the historicity of non-Christian legends?

Depends (nature of the dance, context)

Are dances with the following words sinful:

-The Muslim shahada is quoted and affirmed
-A list of titles to a pagan deity followed by "I meditate on you"
-Referring to a "God" and saying, "May his glory be glorified"
-Saying that non-Christian legends (stories of gods) are historically true

Quote:
Quote:
3. Is it sinful to listen to songs with "taboo words" (eg Eminem) or have suggestive content?

These not-songs, but utter trash, are disordered for other reasons. Merely having offensive words or suggestive language does not make something sinful (otherwise most Latin poetry would be sinful to read, and even parts of the bible)

But rather, the noise they make is disordered and causes destruction of virtue. Music moves the soul. I don't think it is coincidence that many of the current generation acted like possessed people when exposed to beautiful music (it is one thing to not yet appreciate classical music, but you would think demons were screaming in pain... because they are)

Music orders the soul. Here I am speaking of the notes, not the lyrics. And we have several generations raised on increasingly disordered music. At least in the past some pop music had the qualities of folk music (the Band e.g.), but today it is much more disordered.


How does music move the soul, and not-songs destroy virtue? Can you give more explanation on that point, please?

Do the notes of the following destroy virtue:
-Love me like you do
-Shape of You
-Gangnam style
-Burn
-Baby one more time
-What makes you beautiful

_________________
Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:21 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
1. Is it sinful for a sculptor to make idols for worship?

Yes


In case I was not clear; I am referring to sculptors making statues for sale to idolaters, he does not worship them himself.


And he risks damnation. Such is a mortal sin, unambigiously so and against the constant and clear teaching of Catholic morality

Quote:
Quote:
2. Is it sinful to dance in traditional dances of non-Christian societies, with song lyrics that affirm the historicity of non-Christian legends?

Depends (nature of the dance, context)

Are dances with the following words sinful:

-The Muslim shahada is quoted and affirmed
-A list of titles to a pagan deity followed by "I meditate on you"
-Referring to a "God" and saying, "May his glory be glorified"
-Saying that non-Christian legends (stories of gods) are historically true
[/quote]

Probably.

Quote:
Quote:
3. Is it sinful to listen to songs with "taboo words" (eg Eminem) or have suggestive content?

These not-songs, but utter trash, are disordered for other reasons. Merely having offensive words or suggestive language does not make something sinful (otherwise most Latin poetry would be sinful to read, and even parts of the bible)

But rather, the noise they make is disordered and causes destruction of virtue. Music moves the soul. I don't think it is coincidence that many of the current generation acted like possessed people when exposed to beautiful music (it is one thing to not yet appreciate classical music, but you would think demons were screaming in pain... because they are)

Music orders the soul. Here I am speaking of the notes, not the lyrics. And we have several generations raised on increasingly disordered music. At least in the past some pop music had the qualities of folk music (the Band e.g.), but today it is much more disordered.


How does music move the soul, and not-songs destroy virtue? Can you give more explanation on that point, please?

Do the notes of the following destroy virtue:
-Love me like you do
-Shape of You
-Gangnam style
-Burn
-Baby one more time
-What makes you beautiful
[/quote]
I refuse to listen to that sinful garbage.

It should be obvious that music moves the passions. Try watching a movie without the sound track.

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:05 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
1. Is it sinful for a sculptor to make idols for worship?

Yes


In case I was not clear; I am referring to sculptors making statues for sale to idolaters, he does not worship them himself.


And he risks damnation. Such is a mortal sin, unambigiously so and against the constant and clear teaching of Catholic morality

Quote:
Quote:
2. Is it sinful to dance in traditional dances of non-Christian societies, with song lyrics that affirm the historicity of non-Christian legends?

Depends (nature of the dance, context)

Are dances with the following words sinful:

-The Muslim shahada is quoted and affirmed
-A list of titles to a pagan deity followed by "I meditate on you"
-Referring to a "God" and saying, "May his glory be glorified"
-Saying that non-Christian legends (stories of gods) are historically true


Probably.

Quote:
Quote:
3. Is it sinful to listen to songs with "taboo words" (eg Eminem) or have suggestive content?

These not-songs, but utter trash, are disordered for other reasons. Merely having offensive words or suggestive language does not make something sinful (otherwise most Latin poetry would be sinful to read, and even parts of the bible)

But rather, the noise they make is disordered and causes destruction of virtue. Music moves the soul. I don't think it is coincidence that many of the current generation acted like possessed people when exposed to beautiful music (it is one thing to not yet appreciate classical music, but you would think demons were screaming in pain... because they are)

Music orders the soul. Here I am speaking of the notes, not the lyrics. And we have several generations raised on increasingly disordered music. At least in the past some pop music had the qualities of folk music (the Band e.g.), but today it is much more disordered.


How does music move the soul, and not-songs destroy virtue? Can you give more explanation on that point, please?

Do the notes of the following destroy virtue:
-Love me like you do
-Shape of You
-Gangnam style
-Burn
-Baby one more time
-What makes you beautiful
[/quote]
I refuse to listen to that sinful garbage.

It should be obvious that music moves the passions. Try watching a movie without the sound track.[/quote]



The Cure of Ars continually warned his young parishioners to avoid going to "dances"; he knew that
young people going to a dance often ended up with unmarried ppl giving birth 2 children 9 months later.

Maybe I sound like an old fogie. Maybe that's bec I am an old fogie.
If you're young and immature, avoid dances like the plague.

Music: I haven't heard any good popular music in a long time. When I'm in my car, I prefer talk radio.
When there's nothing good on talk radio (christian preferably) I listen to christian popular music.


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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:54 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
1. Is it sinful for a sculptor to make idols for worship?

Yes


In case I was not clear; I am referring to sculptors making statues for sale to idolaters, he does not worship them himself.


And he risks damnation. Such is a mortal sin, unambigiously so and against the constant and clear teaching of Catholic morality

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2. Is it sinful to dance in traditional dances of non-Christian societies, with song lyrics that affirm the historicity of non-Christian legends?

Depends (nature of the dance, context)

Are dances with the following words sinful:

-The Muslim shahada is quoted and affirmed
-A list of titles to a pagan deity followed by "I meditate on you"
-Referring to a "God" and saying, "May his glory be glorified"
-Saying that non-Christian legends (stories of gods) are historically true


Probably.


Thank you for responding :)

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
3. Is it sinful to listen to songs with "taboo words" (eg Eminem) or have suggestive content?

These not-songs, but utter trash, are disordered for other reasons. Merely having offensive words or suggestive language does not make something sinful (otherwise most Latin poetry would be sinful to read, and even parts of the bible)

But rather, the noise they make is disordered and causes destruction of virtue. Music moves the soul. I don't think it is coincidence that many of the current generation acted like possessed people when exposed to beautiful music (it is one thing to not yet appreciate classical music, but you would think demons were screaming in pain... because they are)

Music orders the soul. Here I am speaking of the notes, not the lyrics. And we have several generations raised on increasingly disordered music. At least in the past some pop music had the qualities of folk music (the Band e.g.), but today it is much more disordered.


How does music move the soul, and not-songs destroy virtue? Can you give more explanation on that point, please?

Do the notes of the following destroy virtue:
-Love me like you do
-Shape of You
-Gangnam style
-Burn
-Baby one more time
-What makes you beautiful

I refuse to listen to that sinful garbage.

It should be obvious that music moves the passions. Try watching a movie without the sound track.

Leaving aside my surprise that you have never heard even one of these songs, can you lease explain further how some notes destroy virtue?

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Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:28 am 
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By "notes" I presume you refer to the melody (or what passes for it), rather than the lyrics? In other words, you're asking for the sake of argument to put the lyrics aside and address the "musical" arrangement only?

And yes, I used the quotation marks on purpose. I'm familiar with two of the songs you mentioned, "Gangnam Style" and "Baby One More Time." I would refer to the non-lyrical portions of both as "music" by only the greatest stretch of the definition. :nooo:

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
By "notes" I presume you refer to the melody (or what passes for it), rather than the lyrics? In other words, you're asking for the sake of argument to put the lyrics aside and address the "musical" arrangement only?


I mean what PED refers to:

Quote:
Quote:
3. Is it sinful to listen to songs with "taboo words" (eg Eminem) or have suggestive content?


These not-songs, but utter trash, are disordered for other reasons. Merely having offensive words or suggestive language does not make something sinful (otherwise most Latin poetry would be sinful to read, and even parts of the bible)

But rather, the noise they make is disordered and causes destruction of virtue. Music moves the soul. I don't think it is coincidence that many of the current generation acted like possessed people when exposed to beautiful music (it is one thing to not yet appreciate classical music, but you would think demons were screaming in pain... because they are)

Music orders the soul. Here I am speaking of the notes, not the lyrics. And we have several generations raised on increasingly disordered music. At least in the past some pop music had the qualities of folk music (the Band e.g.), but today it is much more disordered
.

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Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Here's some absolutely sinful music (NAR): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmxXIS2ot8w

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:51 am 
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I love it when people make up big, theological and philosophical reasons to mask tastes. But just for fun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM (Turns out modern popular music and classical music have a lot more in common than often thought)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6rBK0BqL2w (Beetoven, father of all metalheads)

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:55 am 
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Mmmmmmmm ... oven beets.

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:11 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:15 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
1. Is it sinful for a sculptor to make idols for worship?

Yes


In case I was not clear; I am referring to sculptors making statues for sale to idolaters, he does not worship them himself.


And he risks damnation. Such is a mortal sin, unambigiously so and against the constant and clear teaching of Catholic morality

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2. Is it sinful to dance in traditional dances of non-Christian societies, with song lyrics that affirm the historicity of non-Christian legends?

Depends (nature of the dance, context)

Are dances with the following words sinful:

-The Muslim shahada is quoted and affirmed
-A list of titles to a pagan deity followed by "I meditate on you"
-Referring to a "God" and saying, "May his glory be glorified"
-Saying that non-Christian legends (stories of gods) are historically true


Probably.


Are these intrinsically sinful, or only insofar it is proximate material co-operation to evil?

_________________
Prayers,
Jack3
South Indian Eastern Catholic teenager.

"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:14 am 
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gherkin wrote:
nm

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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:52 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Art and morality
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:03 pm 
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