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 Post subject: Is this theoretical dogma really "needed" ???
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:58 am 
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For those previously unfamiliar with the movement or the importance of a solemn definition of Our Lady's roles as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all graces and Advocate, I would like to offer here just one rationale for its present opportuneness.

Mary's titles are her functions. Her roles as the Co-redemptrix (or the "Mother suffering," cf. Second Vatican Council; Lumen Gentium, 58), the Mediatrix of all graces (or the "Mother nourishing" in the order of grace, cf. LG 61,62) and the Advocate (or the "Mother interceding," cf. LG 62) are titles which refer to Mary's motherly spiritual functions of grace which she performs for humanity. If these roles are solemnly proclaimed by the Holy Father, the greatest spiritual authority on earth in the name of all humanity, then the Immaculate Virgin will be able to fully exercise these functions for the human family in a greater and more dynamic way than ever. Many believe that the papal proclamation of this present Marian doctrine will effect a historic release of grace for this present moment of human history — a troubled moment for the world which we can all agree is in need of an unprecedented heavenly release of grace.

Why is the dogma necessary for the Mother of Jesus to most fully intercede for the world today? Jesus will not force his grace, nor his Mother, upon us. We must freely acknowledge her and her God-given roles for humanity, and this by Peter, the possessor of the keys of the kingdom (cf. Mt 16:15-20). Then and only then she will be freed by his "fiat" to her to exercise powerfully a new degree of her intercession of grace for the world. God the Father awaited the "yes" of a young virgin to bring us the grace of the Savior. Now, Mary awaits the "yes" of the Roman Pontiff to bring us a new era of peace and grace through the free and active recognition of her titles, which are her saving functions for humanity.

This is why we desire, we seek, we need the proclamation of a fifth Marian Dogma.


Do we really need a fifth Marian dogma?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:16 am 
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The question of need is perhaps not the way to frame it. Really the only question that matters is whether or not it is true. If it is true, then it is to be believed. But in what sense are you using "need"?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this theoretical dogma really "needed" ???
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:19 am 
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Carole wrote:
Do we really need a fifth Marian dogma?

Did we really "need" the first through fourth?

That said, I'm not sure I find Dr. Miraville's arguments for it convincing.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:22 am 
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Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Really the only question that matters is whether or not it is true.
This is actually not the case, at least as far as a definition goes. The Church is traditionally quite wary of defining doctrines, even true ones, unless there is a clear and visible need to do so.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:31 am 
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Mr.Rudeness wrote:
The question of need is perhaps not the way to frame it. Really the only question that matters is whether or not it is true. If it is true, then it is to be believed. But in what sense are you using "need"?


I'm not. The author of the article is. He's saying that we all should pray for this to come to pass because "we need" it.

Since I think the idea of this 5th Marian dogma is, to put it mildly, unnecessary. I can't imagine any reason why it would be "needed" but the author assures us that it is. So maybe you should ask him in what sense he is using the word.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:02 pm 
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If people were running around denying it all the time, then we would need it. But it's hard to say whether that is the case since the level of Marian devotion these days is very low. My guess is that a definition today would be alienating to many Catholics. Fifty years ago, you could ask anyone and he would tell you that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces. Nowadays? I think not.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:23 pm 
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dcs wrote:
My guess is that a definition today would be alienating to many Catholics.


The dogma of Papal Infallibility was very 'alienating' to many Catholics....


At any rate, my position is, that I have signed the petition asking the Pope for a dogmatic definition I did so more than 10 years ago, and I have not altered my opinion in the slightest.

But.........if it is the judgment of the Church that now is not the time, I accept that. I have to assume that they know better than I do what is and is not appropriate.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:32 pm 
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Just Plain Doom wrote:
The dogma of Papal Infallibility was very 'alienating' to many Catholics....

If by "many," you mean the very few that broke away from the Church, then you're correct.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:38 pm 
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dcs wrote:
Just Plain Doom wrote:
The dogma of Papal Infallibility was very 'alienating' to many Catholics....

If by "many," you mean the very few that broke away from the Church, then you're correct.


And there were many more who stayed in the Church despite their displeasure with the definition, and to a certain extent, we are STILL paying the price for that decision today.

At any rate my point is that the fact that many people might not like it is not really a good reason not to make the definition if a definition is needed on some other grounds.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:56 pm 
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The "5th Dogma" is already taught by the ordinary Magisterium and the fact that many people don't know that and that the terms given to Mary are often misunderstood can certainly be reasons given for a Dogmatic definition. It seems that these Marian teachings are confusing to many and a right understanding of them would certainly be a benefit.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:58 pm 
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As far as the "need" goes, I believe Dr. Miravalle and others believe that we are living in a great time of trial and devotion to Mary can and will be a great aid to our present crisis.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:59 pm 
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Fulton Sheen put forth a hypothesis that the Church defined the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption for social-cultrual issues in addition to the doctrinal issues. He stated that the Immaculate Conception was to remind people that only one person was born free from sin and the Assumption to give people hope in a time where death was a big fear to the world.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:16 pm 
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CCB wrote:
the Assumption to give people hope in a time where death was a big fear to the world.


Pope Pius XII himself publicly stated that one of the reasons for the definition of the Assumption was to 'reaffirm the dignity of human life and the human body at a time when these were being widely violated' In other words, he thought of it as a kind of protest against the evils of communism and Nazism.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Just Plain Doom wrote:
And there were many more who stayed in the Church despite their displeasure with the definition, and to a certain extent, we are STILL paying the price for that decision today.

I'm not sure I understand quite what you mean. Anyway, with faith in the Church at an all-time low, unlike the end of the 19th century, defining an "alienating" dogma is probably not the way to go.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Bonaventure wrote:
The "5th Dogma" is already taught by the ordinary Magisterium and the fact that many people don't know that and that the terms given to Mary are often misunderstood can certainly be reasons given for a Dogmatic definition. It seems that these Marian teachings are confusing to many and a right understanding of them would certainly be a benefit.

Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of All Graces are definitely taught by the Ordinary Magisterium but I am not sure about "Advocate."


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:03 pm 
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Advocate seems to be included in the other two, especially the Mediatrix of all graces. In any case, it seems Advocate only means that Mary prays and intercedes for us and that doesn't seem to be in question anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Bonaventure wrote:
The "5th Dogma" is already taught by the ordinary Magisterium
You're not going to make me go through the whole argument again, are you? :)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:10 pm 
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No. But the fact that there are still questions on how to understand the three teachings is an argument in favor of the definition IMHO. I believe that what is already taught is that Mary cooperated in the objective redemption, She prays for us and Intercedes for us, and that She is the Mediatrix of grace.

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Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:14 pm 
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And (just for those who didn't follow our previous discussion), I maintain in reply that the fact there is still substantial discussion means that the mind of the Church has not sufficiently discerned the exact content of those doctrines to enable a formal definition.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:00 pm 
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dcs wrote:
Just Plain Doom wrote:
And there were many more who stayed in the Church despite their displeasure with the definition, and to a certain extent, we are STILL paying the price for that decision today.

I'm not sure I understand quite what you mean. Anyway, with faith in the Church at an all-time low, unlike the end of the 19th century, defining an "alienating" dogma is probably not the way to go.



You mean about still paying the price today? Um.... ask me again sometime when I am in the mood to go through that argument once more.


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