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 Post subject: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:41 pm 
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Journeyman
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OK. No you don't. You venerate them. But why?

The primary distinction between veneration and worship seems to be that, in the case of worship, there is a explicit recognition that the object is God, whereas with veneration, the object is not recognized as God. Is there any other practical distinction between worship and veneration?

Take the Hail, Holy Queen, for example:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.

That is pretty heavy stuff, isn't it? Just reading the text of that prayer, it does kind of seem like we are approaching Mary in a manner that is similar to the manner in which we might approach God in other prayers. Coming from a protestant background, this still makes me pretty uneasy, to be honest. Did any other converts here have trouble getting used to this?

I can understand why someone would want to ask a saint to pray for him. That makes sense.

I don't quite understand the purpose of veneration. Why would I want to spend time honoring a saint, when I could spend that same time honoring God instead? I could honor the gifts that God gave to the saint, but I think that is different than honoring the saint himself.

A priest at my church said that veneration of the Saints is used to bring us closer to God.

Alright, I accept that could be possible in theory, and if this is the case, cool. But I don't understand how or in what manner venerating saints brings us closer to God.

Could anyone give a few practical examples of exactly how that works? With asking a saint to pray for you, I can see how it works. But I don't see how honoring a saint accomplishes that.

Kind of like, in an Earthly example, if I throw a party in the honor of Bob, it brings me closer to Bob, right? I don't see how me honoring Bob improves my relationship with Sam.

If anyone could explain that I would appreciate it!

Herman


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:42 pm 
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do a google search on the terms dulia, hyperdulia, and latria

EDIT: more legible...

D U L I A
H Y P E R D U L I A
L A T R I A


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:12 pm 
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We don't worship God in a vacuum. He has associated certain persons, places, and things with himself; and so we honor him by paying honor to those persons, places, and things.

You don't use the family heirloom vase as a toothbrush holder. You don't use your mother's best dress as a cleaning rag. You don't use original photographs of your wedding as coffee coasters. Do do so would be to show disrespect for those persons whom they represent.

Similarly, to treat Christ's Mother and the Saints with contempt or indifference is, in a certain way, to show contempt for God.


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:45 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
do a google search on the terms dulia, hyperdulia, and latria

EDIT: more legible...

D U L I A
H Y P E R D U L I A
L A T R I A


:). Thanks. I think! If I search this what kind of stuff is going to come up? I am still at work!


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:54 pm 
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AdAltareDei wrote:
We don't worship God in a vacuum. He has associated certain persons, places, and things with himself; and so we honor him by paying honor to those persons, places, and things.

You don't use the family heirloom vase as a toothbrush holder. You don't use your mother's best dress as a cleaning rag. You don't use original photographs of your wedding as coffee coasters. Do do so would be to show disrespect for those persons whom they represent.

Similarly, to treat Christ's Mother and the Saints with contempt or indifference is, in a certain way, to show contempt for God.


Thanks. But I don't think we should treat anyone with contempt or indifference, be he a saint or not!

If any of the Saints shows up at my doorstep, I will be sure to let them in and pull out the good china. But that is a little different, I think, than going out of your way to honor a saint who is not right there in your presence. You could use any period of time to worship God directly, or you could use that same time to venerate a saint. The question is, why would I use that time to venerate a saint, when I could use the time to worship God directly? What is the benefit of venerating a saint when I can worship God directly. That is what I do not understand . . .

Asking a Saint to pray for you seems worthwhile, because I think there are things in the Bible that suggest that both the number and quality of prayers count. And perhaps prayer also increases our faith/reliance on God.

But with the aspect of venerating a Saint, I am still a bit unsure why anyone would want to go out of their way to do that . . .


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:37 am 
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HermanVA wrote:
That is pretty heavy stuff, isn't it? Just reading the text of that prayer, it does kind of seem like we are approaching Mary in a manner that is similar to the manner in which we might approach God in other prayers. Coming from a protestant background, this still makes me pretty uneasy, to be honest. Did any other converts here have trouble getting used to this?
Quote:

Yep. I barely pray to Mary. I don't pray to other saints. I certainly don't venerate them.

There is nothing wrong with doing so and if a protestant argues against it I will defend our practices, but I just don't *get it* for myself. I kind of do it because I accept that the Church knows better and if she tells me praying to Mary is a good thing to do, I believe her.

Quote:
Kind of like, in an Earthly example, if I throw a party in the honor of Bob, it brings me closer to Bob, right? I don't see how me honoring Bob improves my relationship with Sam.


Sure it can. It depends on the relationship Bob and Sam have. If someone throws a party in honor of someone I care deeply for, it can bring me closer to them. I care about people who care about my family and my friends.

I do have relationships with people that were built first by building a relationship with someone they care for. I have a very strong friendship with my sister in law. My brother however.. we had some bad blood from when we were teenagers. My relationship with my sister in law has improved my relationship with my brother because it meant a lot of the ground work that was required for us to have a relationship was done indirectly by his wife. It meant that my brother and I got to skip the steps where we dealt with what happened between us - which we wouldn't have been able to do. By his wife and I accepting each other, I was in essence telling my brother that I accepted *him*. If I didn't care for him, why would I treat her like a sister? I didn't, and don't, have to. Likewise, in supporting his wife in her friendship with me, he was telling me that I was accepted.

I absolutely was honoring him by treating his wife with love and respect. It absolutely improved my relationship with my brother.

Think of the reverse. If someone treats someone someone else with disdain, can't that damage your relationship with them? If Bob mistreats Sam and I love Sam, then won't my relationship with Bob be affected? Or my relationship with Sam? Absolutely! So why not the reverse?

It's not a perfect analogy. I don't think God loves us anymore because we honor the Saints, but it does help me see why it might help *me* to honor the Saints.

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"We never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son."
-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:58 am 
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Jayne wrote:
It's not a perfect analogy.

Well, maybe. But I think it's a really good one.

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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:25 am 
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Jayne wrote:
HermanVA wrote:
That is pretty heavy stuff, isn't it? Just reading the text of that prayer, it does kind of seem like we are approaching Mary in a manner that is similar to the manner in which we might approach God in other prayers. Coming from a protestant background, this still makes me pretty uneasy, to be honest. Did any other converts here have trouble getting used to this?
Quote:

Yep. I barely pray to Mary. I don't pray to other saints. I certainly don't venerate them.

There is nothing wrong with doing so and if a protestant argues against it I will defend our practices, but I just don't *get it* for myself. I kind of do it because I accept that the Church knows better and if she tells me praying to Mary is a good thing to do, I believe her.

Quote:
Kind of like, in an Earthly example, if I throw a party in the honor of Bob, it brings me closer to Bob, right? I don't see how me honoring Bob improves my relationship with Sam.


Sure it can. It depends on the relationship Bob and Sam have. If someone throws a party in honor of someone I care deeply for, it can bring me closer to them. I care about people who care about my family and my friends.

I do have relationships with people that were built first by building a relationship with someone they care for. I have a very strong friendship with my sister in law. My brother however.. we had some bad blood from when we were teenagers. My relationship with my sister in law has improved my relationship with my brother because it meant a lot of the ground work that was required for us to have a relationship was done indirectly by his wife. It meant that my brother and I got to skip the steps where we dealt with what happened between us - which we wouldn't have been able to do. By his wife and I accepting each other, I was in essence telling my brother that I accepted *him*. If I didn't care for him, why would I treat her like a sister? I didn't, and don't, have to. Likewise, in supporting his wife in her friendship with me, he was telling me that I was accepted.

I absolutely was honoring him by treating his wife with love and respect. It absolutely improved my relationship with my brother.

Think of the reverse. If someone treats someone someone else with disdain, can't that damage your relationship with them? If Bob mistreats Sam and I love Sam, then won't my relationship with Bob be affected? Or my relationship with Sam? Absolutely! So why not the reverse?

It's not a perfect analogy. I don't think God loves us anymore because we honor the Saints, but it does help me see why it might help *me* to honor the Saints.


Jayne. Thanks for the comment. That is certainly interesting to think about.

Well, if you treat anyone with disdain, I would think that would damage your relationship with God, whether the person is a saint or not. But your example does make sense. You could "skip some of the steps" in getting to know Sam by way of you knowing Bob. Maybe Sam might trust me more because of how I treated Bob.

How does that play out exactly with the case of honoring a saint? For example, you wrote that God does not love us any more because we honor the saints. But perhaps God does reward us for honoring the saints. Is that the idea? You do see certain things in the Bible that suggest that certain people are to be given honor.

Perhaps the analogy also breaks down a little because we can worship God directly, whereas it might not be possible to approach Sam directly.

But I think it is an analogy that helps me to start to understand the idea behind it. Thanks again.

Best,
Herman


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:51 pm 
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It's very easy to slip into a kind of mechanical, impersonal approach to God. But we see from all of salvation history that God relates to us in a personal way but also a social way. Already under the old covenant God relates to the world through individual people who are special, through the patriarchs, through Moses, through the judges, through David, through his prophets, through a chosen people who are specially bound to Him. With the Incarnation this takes on an even more profound meaning. Suddenly now we are no longer dealing merely with particular people He has chosen for special roles but with His actual Mother, His foster father, His closest friends and associates. God the Father takes us on as adopted sons with Jesus our brother and Mary our Mother and a whole lot of other brothers and sisters. In a rationalistic society like ours, it's again tempting to take this in an abstract way, in a metaphorical way, but it's very concrete and direct, real people, real friends of God who are sharers in communion with us as the chosen people, and in whom God has chosen to be glorified. Give that reality of family, of a chosen people a deeper look, and I think it will become more clear.

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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:39 am 
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HermanVA wrote:
. . . why would I use that time to venerate a saint, when I could use the time to worship God directly? What is the benefit of venerating a saint when I can worship God directly. . .


If you think that honoring God's saints is a waste of time, perhaps it's because you're looking at it from a utilitarian standpoint instead of simply asking what is the right thing to do. If God wants to be worshipped "indirectly" as well as "directly," then we ought so to do.

From Nicaea II:

    If anyone does not accept representation in art of evangelical scenes, let him be anathema.

    If anyone does not salute such representations as standing for the Lord and his saints, let him be anathema.

From Trent (Session 25):

    those who maintain that veneration and honor are not due to the relics of the saints, or that these and other memorials are honored by the faithful without profit, and that the places dedicated to the memory of the saints for the purpose of obtaining their aid are visited in vain, are to be utterly condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned and now again condemns them.

    ... through the saints the miracles of God and salutary examples are set before the eyes of the faithful, so that they may give God thanks for those things, may fashion their own life and conduct in imitation of the saints and be moved to adore and love God and cultivate piety.


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:17 am 
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HermanVA wrote:
How does that play out exactly with the case of honoring a saint? For example, you wrote that God does not love us any more because we honor the saints. But perhaps God does reward us for honoring the saints. Is that the idea? You do see certain things in the Bible that suggest that certain people are to be given honor.

Perhaps the analogy also breaks down a little because we can worship God directly, whereas it might not be possible to approach Sam directly.



I would disagree that it is always possible to approach God directly. God is always there and always willing to be approached, but we are human. We put barriers up where they shouldn't be. Some may see the Saints as more approachable during the times when they can't, or won't, approach God.

When I was a young(er) adult, I was very scared of God. Once I got over been scared, I was very angry. I think had I been Catholic at the time and able to reach out to the Saints for help, it would have been of great benefit. Both in helping to build a bridge with God, must as my SIL did with my brother, and also because I could have asked for their prayers. Instead I was pentecostal and I thought I had to go it alone. What a blessing the saints would have been!

I also think that whilst we can build a relationship with someone alone, is it really wise to do so? I think of my friendships and very few of them are just me and my friend There are other people involved. Friendship is something that is both very personal, but very much involves other people. Many people have a group of friends - and taking even one person out of that group changes the dynamics. The group would be less for not having them there. The Saints are just part of our group. We should no more ignore them, or pretend they aren't, than we would the person sitting next to us at a dinner party.

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"We never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son."
-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:17 am 
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I worship saints.

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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:34 pm 
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Well, yeah, the word "worship" is pretty broad in its original meaning. "With this Ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship," and what not.


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:33 pm 
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You're probably going to have to move this conversation 101 is not a debate forum

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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:34 pm 
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AdAltareDei wrote:
Well, yeah, the word "worship" is pretty broad in its original meaning. "With this Ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship," and what not.

Yeah, and all of the old Catholic books I grew up with spoke of worshipping the saints.... I certainly do not adore them, though!

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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:08 am 
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Where something as foundational as prayer is concerned ...I would never risk the logic that ... praying to anyone other than as Jesus (clearly, specifically) instructed... is acceptable ... based on the argument that ... someone says it was never specifically prohibited.
Jesus (God, the one who created us) came to bring absolute clarity to a broken confused people. He focused on specific things that were most important to him while he was living in Israel. He gave extremely specific instructions about who God the Father is and how to develop a healthy one on one relationship with him. It was THE main thing that Jesus came to re establish after Adam broke it. Jesus makes it perfectly clear in the words he spoke as recorded in the Bible. Jesus said that he came to tear down the wall between God and man so that all uf us could enjoy direct access to the throne of God. Jesus specifically instructed us to exercise our faith as we pray directly to the members of the triune Godhead. That is what I focus on and it has brought incredible fruit.

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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:03 am 
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EtCum, I think you are adding to the words of the Gospels. I don't recall Jesus ever saying to pray to him, much less the Holy Spirit...


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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:49 pm 
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Pelagius wrote:
EtCum, I think you are adding to the words of the Gospels. I don't recall Jesus ever saying to pray to him, much less the Holy Spirit...


Mark 12:29
Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God

All Catholics have affirmed the above on countless occasions by praying "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".


Jesus said in John 14:14, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it."


John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

Psalm 129:33 Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.

Romans 8:26
And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays (intercedes) for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.

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 Post subject: Re: You worship Saints!!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:59 pm 
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You seem that you don't know.

You cannot see God. How can one get help?

A baby depends on his parents. For example, his mother gives him food: milk from her breasts.

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