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 Post subject: a question on souls
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:12 am 
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Tazer Queen
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My mom came up with a new one when I was home. I about flipped my wig.

She said, that we have two non-phsyical beings. A "spirit" and a "soul." And that when we die, our "spirit" goes to heaven (ala, "into your hands I commend my spirit") and a soul, which is who we are, which remains with our bodies.

I said to her, that this is heresy. Our souls go to God and our judged. This is akin to "soul sleep" the old whacky protestant heresy.

She said that we have three beings within us, and it is in this way we are made in the image and likeness of God.

Please tell me how I can address this catechetical problem. Thanks.

By the way, my mom is a good CAtholic woman. She's just been listening too much to my heretic brother.
--Ann

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 Post subject: Re: a question on souls
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:43 pm 
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sparky wrote:
My mom came up with a new one when I was home. I about flipped my wig.

She said, that we have two non-phsyical beings. A "spirit" and a "soul." And that when we die, our "spirit" goes to heaven (ala, "into your hands I commend my spirit") and a soul, which is who we are, which remains with our bodies.

I said to her, that this is heresy. Our souls go to God and our judged. This is akin to "soul sleep" the old whacky protestant heresy.

She said that we have three beings within us, and it is in this way we are made in the image and likeness of God.

Please tell me how I can address this catechetical problem. Thanks.

By the way, my mom is a good CAtholic woman. She's just been listening too much to my heretic brother.
--Ann


I wouldn't get too upset because many early Church Fathers talked about a soul and spirit. They are however the same thing, but in reference usually to a different part of our Immortality. The Church Fathers described the word "soul" to describe the lower or sensitive powers of the Immortal Soul, while the word "spirit" was used to describe the higher or intellectual powers of the Immortal Soul. Your mom has a good philosophy on using soul and spirit in different references, however just tell her that they are the same but in reference to different powers of the soul. Tell her too that the word "heart" like love from the heart, is not literally from a blood pumping vessel, but from the spirit, the heart, your soul which contains your true love. The soul connected to the body and sleeping thing is incorrect though. That is a Jehovah's Witness heresy, not a truth issued by God.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:52 pm 
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Journeyman
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Sounds like she's actually thinking about her faith. That's a good thing. :clap:

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:53 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Quote:
She said that we have three beings within us, and it is in this way we are made in the image and likeness of God.

Close, but no cigar. I think it was Pax who said that we are like God in this way: we have our bodies (like the Second Person), our intellect/soul (like God the Father), and the Holy Spirit, which just plain is the Holy Spirit.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:57 pm 
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Long Live Benedict XVI wrote:
Quote:
She said that we have three beings within us, and it is in this way we are made in the image and likeness of God.

Close, but no cigar. I think it was Pax who said that we are like God in this way: we have our bodies (like the Second Person), our intellect/soul (like God the Father), and the Holy Spirit, which just plain is the Holy Spirit.


Thats perfect, I have heard that before. We consist of a body, soul and the Holy Spirit Himself. This is while in the state of grace obviously not in the state of Mortal Sin.


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 Post subject: Re: a question on souls
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:59 pm 
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sparky wrote:
My mom came up with a new one when I was home. I about flipped my wig.

She said, that we have two non-phsyical beings. A "spirit" and a "soul." And that when we die, our "spirit" goes to heaven (ala, "into your hands I commend my spirit") and a soul, which is who we are, which remains with our bodies.

I said to her, that this is heresy. Our souls go to God and our judged. This is akin to "soul sleep" the old whacky protestant heresy.

She said that we have three beings within us, and it is in this way we are made in the image and likeness of God.

Please tell me how I can address this catechetical problem. Thanks.

By the way, my mom is a good CAtholic woman. She's just been listening too much to my heretic brother.
--Ann


I'm afraid that the only thing I can add is that the "spirit, soul & body" as the three components of man, is the heresy of Trichotomy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:03 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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It is indeed the trichotomist heresy. This has become a big deal recently (again). This time it is manifesting in Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

The view of the person as body + soul and Spirit that recognizes the Spirit as the the HS itself is Ok and was first espoused by St. Irenaeus.


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 Post subject: Re: a question on souls
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:29 pm 
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sparky wrote:
My mom came up with a new one when I was home. I about flipped my wig.

She said, that we have two non-phsyical beings. A "spirit" and a "soul." And that when we die, our "spirit" goes to heaven (ala, "into your hands I commend my spirit") and a soul, which is who we are, which remains with our bodies.

I said to her, that this is heresy. Our souls go to God and our judged. This is akin to "soul sleep" the old whacky protestant heresy.

She said that we have three beings within us, and it is in this way we are made in the image and likeness of God.

Please tell me how I can address this catechetical problem. Thanks.

By the way, my mom is a good CAtholic woman. She's just been listening too much to my heretic brother.
--Ann


I would simply say that who we are is body and soul. To really separate these is dangerous, but necessary since the fall. Both were created in order to give humanity reality, and both were created to be infinite. Sin, however, created a war between them. And thus, corruption entered humanity and the rest of physical creation and thus sent it on a course toward death. The soul, however, being immaterial and incorruptable cannot be snuffed out by this. The problem that is caused is that when the physical dies, the soul has to exist in some reality separated from the body. The penalty for the first sin was that Man would have his physical body die, and his soul "dwell" lost and separated from God.

God would have been completely just to leave it at that. We deserved it. But, instead, through an act of complete mercy and grace, decided to reveal a way that we could have our souls be reunited not only to God after death, but to also be given back our perfect bodies free from the corruption caused by the first sin.

Thus, now when our physical body dies, our soul has a place to dwell that is united to God, and it will await the resurrection of our bodies.

I think one of the main things your mom is getting wrong is the idea that our soul is "in" or "with" our bodies. The soul is not a local phenomena. We have to be careful about limiting our existence to our experience of our existence. If eternity is symbolized as being big, then we are a little bigger than we appear. That is, for most of us, we picture eternity as being unlimited space... Although this is incorrect, it allows for us to say that I literally am bigger than the few cubic feet of space that I think is the limit of my existense. This is because part of what makes me me is not something that can be contained.

I hope that make sense... It only barely did to me, and I wrote it.

FJ

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 8:56 pm 
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Forumjunkie.....so, in essence you are saying that the soul and spirit are the same?

BTW.....I understood everything up to the last paragraph....kinda got lost in that


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:16 pm 
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In order to solve this equation, another factor is needed. Body and soul, spirit and flesh.

Body is the material form of our bodies, it consist of the dust of the earth (elements)

Soul contains our personality and that whitch makes us aware of ourselves and reality

Body and soul are dependent on each other. Without a soul, the body is lifeless and without conciousness. Without a body, the soul cannot act.

Spirit is a broader term, but is usually understood as that whitch conforms to God's will and anything that is holy in a person. A person's spirit is that whitch gives the soul the virtue to act though the body for good.

Flesh is the oppisite. It stands in the way of the kingdom of heaven, struggles in a manner to blind/bind the virtue of a person with vice and let the body try to act for it's own good.

Spirit and flesh are exculive concepts, one connot serve both God and mammon. Spirit is orientation of the body and soul to God. Flesh is the orientation of the body and soul

Of course my post, merely explains about current life. i will reiterate again that body and soul, though distinct are neccessary for life on earth.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:04 am 
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hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

the passage shows, that without the spirt, the soul is not "whole"...

just as bones without marrow-----that would be one "arthritic" pain I wouldnt want.

they both go together, is the way I read it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:24 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Spirit and soul are the same thing. A review of the NT shows pneuma and psyche used interchangeably. They are only separate entities in the sense of the individual's sould being separate from the Holy Spirit.


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 Post subject: the soul
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 10:16 am 
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http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Soul.asp


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