Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 27 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: What kind of theology is this?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:55 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 586
Location: San Antonio, Texas U.S.A.
I decided to change the topic of this thread, becausr I didn't feel well posting it.

I understand some Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and perhaps Lutherans view them selves all as part of the Roman Catholic church.

The only conflict is how much power the Pope ( Bishop of Rome) has.

Does any one know anything about this?


Cas.

_________________
Because you will not abandon my sould to the nether world,
not will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:52 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:34 pm
Posts: 34713
Location: San Antonio
Religion: Catholic
Addressing the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) only and its view of the Pope and his authority. It is not a question of how much power he has, because for them he has none.

From the Doctrine of the LCMS (a series of Synodically Adopted Statements):
On Justification:

Quote:
19. We reject as apostasy from the Christian religion not only the doctrine of the Unitarians, who promise the grace of God to men on the basis of their moral efforts; not only the gross work-doctrine of the papists, who expressly teach that good works are necessary to obtain justification; but also the doctrine of the synergists, who indeed use the terminology of the Christian Church and say that man is justified "by faith," "by faith alone," but again mix human works into the article of justification by ascribing to man a co-operation with God in the kindling of faith and thus stray into papistic territory.


Of the Means of Grace:
Quote:
23. We reject as a dangerous error the doctrine, which disrupted the Church of the Reformation, that the grace and the Spirit of God are communicated not through the external means ordained by Him, but by an immediate operation of grace. This erroneous doctrine bases the forgiveness of sins, or justification, upon a fictitious "infused grace," that is, upon a quality of man, and thus again establishes the work-doctrine of the papists.


The most openly confrontational and that clearly places the LCMS in absolute opposition to the Pope is this last one. (Emphasis added)
Of the Antichrist:
Quote:
43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)


Sadly, they do not have the same view of Apostolic Succession of preaching and authority we have.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:37 am 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:58 pm
Posts: 2311
Almost all Christian groups regard themselves as being part of the catholic church - not the Roman Catholic Church. They pray the Nicene Creed: "we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church ..." But this does not mean that they regard themselves as Roman Catholics, or that in the case of the Lutherans and Orthodox, that they would call themselves Catholic. Some "high church" Anglicans will refer to themselves as Anglo-Catholic, by which they affirm their (erroneous) belief that they are the Catholic Church in England, or among English speakers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:43 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:40 am
Posts: 8521
Location: Tennessee
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
catholic church - not the Roman Catholic Church.


And for the record, there is no difference in the above two things.

I can't for the life of me figure out why these people bother to pray the Nicene creed - at least why they leave this line in. For they are professing belief in something they really don't believe in. And the fact that their 'idea' of the Catholic church is separate from the actual Church the Fathers speak of is inconsequential.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:15 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:34 pm
Posts: 34713
Location: San Antonio
Religion: Catholic
matteo d'basio wrote:
They pray the Nicene Creed: "we believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church ..." But this does not mean that they regard themselves as Roman Catholics, or that in the case of the Lutherans and Orthodox, that they would call themselves Catholic.


Correct about the Lutherans (LCMS). Their statement on what they refer to as the Three Ecumenical or Universal Creeds (The Apostles' Creed, The Nicene Creed, and The Athanasian Creed) includes the caveat, "catholic means 'universal' and is not a reference to the Roman Catholic Church."

However, in Lutheran Worship prepared by the Commission on Worship of the LCMS (1982, Concordia Publishing House), the Apostles' Creed reads in part:

"I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Christian Church,*
the communion of saints,..."

and the Nicene Creed:

"And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church,*
I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins,..."

* The ancient text: one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

So, as a practice in Worship they do not use the word "catholic". It seems they say is the Christian Church is a universal Church instituted by Christ and it is definitely not the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

_________________
Formerly LiveByFaithNotSight
1HCaAC = One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G. K. Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:34 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:07 pm
Posts: 3008
Location: Where I am
Peter the Grate wrote:
Quote:
catholic church - not the Roman Catholic Church.


And for the record, there is no difference in the above two things.


## Except that Catholic Church in Catholic usage includes all 22 or so Rites and Churches in union with Rome (of which the RCC is merely the largest; wheeras, in Protestant usage, it tends to mean "the Church as a whole" - almost, to be a synonym for the "Catholic"/"Universal" Church. ##

Quote:
I can't for the life of me figure out why these people bother to pray the Nicene creed - at least why they leave this line in. For they are professing belief in something they really don't believe in. And the fact that their 'idea' of the Catholic church is separate from the actual Church the Fathers speak of is inconsequential.


## Because they could say, that Rome has innovated in various ways: a lot depends upon one's POV. They believe in the Church, for sure; but they do not equate the Church with the "Roman" Church - though Anglican ecclesiology does include the idea that Rome is a "branch" of the Church. I think it always has.

I'm not sure of the meaning of your last sentence. ##

_________________
"If when we judged others, our real motive was to destroy evil, we should look for evil where it is certain to be found, and that is in our own hearts."

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, "The Cost of Discipleship".


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:14 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 586
Location: San Antonio, Texas U.S.A.
I'm under the impresion that Liberals will view a connection with other churches and conservstives will only view those in union with the Pope (22 rites).

Though I heard the Maronite priest in the Maronite rite church in my hometown is married with children, I bet some conservatives don't think thats fair....

Cas.

_________________
Because you will not abandon my sould to the nether world,
not will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What kind of theology is this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:36 pm 
Offline
Apostle of Iraq
Apostle of Iraq
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 1:06 am
Posts: 20306
Location: Iraq, Sadr City
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th degree Knight of Columbus
Castilian wrote:
I decided to change the topic of this thread, becausr I didn't feel well posting it.

I understand some Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and perhaps Lutherans view them selves all as part of the Roman Catholic church.

The only conflict is how much power the Pope ( Bishop of Rome) has.

Does any one know anything about this?


Cas.


The power the Pope has is the total question. He is the prime minister of God! Any man who professes Christ and yet denounce His prime minister is throwing the chief stewart out of the house, when in fact the Master didn't order that. The Master only warns the chief stewart what would happen should the Master return to find the chief steward not following direction. The servents are not free to rebell!

_________________
http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa16 ... reedom.flv

*NEW YOUTUBE CHANNEL* http://www.youtube.com/defendercatholic *NEW YOUTUBE CHANNEL*
http://catholicscomehome.org/epic/epic120.html
Ephesians 6:10-17
1 Timothy 3:15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:55 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:34 pm
Posts: 34713
Location: San Antonio
Religion: Catholic
Castilian wrote:
The only conflict is how much power the Pope ( Bishop of Rome) has.


As I understand it, the Eastern Orthodox do not view our Pope has having any power.

_________________
Formerly LiveByFaithNotSight
1HCaAC = One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G. K. Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:00 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 10:01 am
Posts: 586
Location: San Antonio, Texas U.S.A.
"As I understand it, the Eastern Orthodox do not view our Pope has having any power."

I could imagine that being true, mabye they would just see him as a local/common Bishop (or whatever is their highest priest) ...

Cas.

_________________
Because you will not abandon my sould to the nether world,
not will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:19 am 
Quote:
* The ancient text: one holy catholic and apostolic Church.


as IFFFFF these words haven't been spoken since "ancient" days. ::): Give me a break!

[blatant sarcasm]Hey, I know! Let's change the words so we like them better. Those old words are just ancient, not really what I think we should say. Yeah, that sounds better. I like it like that. No, change this word........ta da! You too can be a Protestant! [/blatant sarcasm]

Sorry if I've offended any Protestants. Divorce yourself from a Church that had been around for centuries, though, and I guess you open yourself up for some ribbing.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:32 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:34 pm
Posts: 34713
Location: San Antonio
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Let's change the words so we like them better. Those old words are just ancient, not really what I think we should say. Yeah, that sounds better.


In a left-handed way at least the LCMS acknowledges the correct words. The problem is they have a very hard time using the word "catholic" (even though it means universal) in the "profession of faith", i.e., the Nicene Creed in this case, because of their absolute opposition to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

"Good works" is also a difficult and dangerous topic ― to their way of thinking ― always prefaced by much emphasis on their "salvation by faith alone doctrine", which is a misreading of [bible]Ephesians 2:8[/bible] before even getting to verse 9.

There can be no mistake regardless of the version of the Bible one reads. It is by grace we are saved through faith which is not from ourselves being gifts from God (i.e., both grace and faith). Verse 9 shows that it is not from what we do (works) as in keeping the law ([bible]Romans 3:20-28[/bible]).

But back to it being by grace. [bible]Ephesians 2:5[/bible] makes it clear too, "it is by grace you have been saved."

Any discussion of works or good works is viewed with trepidation by the LCMS. [bible]Ephesians 2:10[/bible] seems a stealth verse, unseen and unheard; not viewed as a part of salvation. But it is a clear and undeniable purpose of the gift of God's grace and faith. And there can be no doubt they are good works, because God is the author of them having prepared them in advance for us to do and walk in.

_________________
Formerly LiveByFaithNotSight
1HCaAC = One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G. K. Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:28 pm 
Quote:
As I understand it, the Eastern Orthodox do not view our Pope has having any power.

I apologize if this is seen as splitting hairs, but does our Pope have any "power"? He's just a leader, a shepherd. All power comes from God, right? He may have the ability to enact procedures and provide statements of faith due to the considerable respect he has earned and his position of responsibility...but is this power? Even in terms of ex cathedra...isn't that only our recognition that the Holy Spirit speaks through him therefore his statements are infallible?


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:21 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:34 pm
Posts: 34713
Location: San Antonio
Religion: Catholic
Splitting hairs? I don't know.

But the Pope, particularly in ex cathedra has power concerning doctrine of faith or morals by Divine assistance through Apostolic succession. I don't believe any of the denominations mentioned acknowledge this power, being certain about the Lutherans.

The New Advent site wrote:
[I]ts present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

_________________
Formerly LiveByFaithNotSight
1HCaAC = One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G. K. Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:47 pm 
I don't think we're disagreeing - I think I see power as something different. I think of ex cathedra as more authority than power. In my mind, the power is God's and he works through all of us, especially the Holy Father. A statement holds more authority from the Holy Father ex cathedra because of the Holy Spirit - from which all power comes. I'm not completely sure of this - just a feeling I have.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:29 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:34 pm
Posts: 34713
Location: San Antonio
Religion: Catholic
My comment was one of clarification.

Yes, all true power comes from God.

_________________
Formerly LiveByFaithNotSight
1HCaAC = One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G. K. Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:43 am 
Sorry - I still think I was splitting hairs. Probably distracting from the conversation. Thanks for your patience.

To try to move back to the topic, I have a question. Do any of the Orthodox churches have leadership like our Holy Father or are they simply led by bishops? Do their bishops form something like our Magisterium?


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:05 am 
Offline
Adept
Adept

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:54 am
Posts: 5736
Location: contra mundum
Religion: Catholic
Castillian wrote:

Quote:
Though I heard the Maronite priest in the Maronite rite church in my hometown is married with children, I bet some conservatives don't think thats fair....


Why would "conservatives" be especially concerned about this? Usually "Conservatives" are the only ones in the room who know what a Maronite Church even is, and true conservatives have profound respect for them and their priests

In fact, possibly the finest priest I know is a married Roman Catholic priest (one of very few). It's not about "fair", it's about people living out the vocation given them by God.

Always be very concerned when someone is negatively labeling things "conservative" in the Church. To be conservative mean to wish to conserve that which is good. The Catholic Church is by nature conservative, because from age to age it conserves the Gospel. Liberalism sits uneasily in the conservative Church and often makes war on it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:34 am 
Offline
Newbie
Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:32 am
Posts: 16
Location: Washington, DC
Coming from a protestant background, I know the fears about the Pope and papal authority. However, what allayed my fear was consideration of Pope John Paul II, and what a wonderful man he is. This Pope has done so much good, and I for one have absolute respect for his authority. He leads through the strength of his character, his courage, his stands against communism, his intellect, and so many other ways. The world would be a much, much better place if there were more leaders like him. I'm in RCIA now, and I embrace all the Church's teachings.

_________________
et galeam salutis assumite: et gladium Spiritus, quod est verbum Dei


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:20 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:34 pm
Posts: 34713
Location: San Antonio
Religion: Catholic
CuriosiTkilled_kat wrote:
To try to move back to the topic, I have a question. Do any of the Orthodox churches have leadership like our Holy Father or are they simply led by bishops? Do their bishops form something like our Magisterium?


Here is some quick Google on the Greek Orthodox Church in America.


The Rev. Robert G. Stephanopoulos, Ph.D wrote:
THE GREEK (EASTERN) ORTHODOX CHURCH IN AMERICA

After the seventh Ecumenical Council in AD 787, the basic unity of faith and ecclesiastical life between East and West began to disintegrate, due to a variety of theological, jurisdictional, cultural and political differences. This eventually led to the Great Schism between East and West of AD 1054. This unfortunate division was aggravated to the point of a complete break in communication between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church. Centuries later the protests against Rome in Western Europe gave rise to the Protestant Reformation.

The Orthodox Church today is a communion of self governing Churches, each administratively independent of the other, but united by a common faith and spirituality. Their underlying unity is based on identity of doctrines, sacramental life and worship, which distinguishes Orthodox Christianity. All recognize the spiritual preeminence of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople who is acknowledged as primus inter pares, [or] first among equals. All share full communion with one another. The living tradition of the Church and the principles of concord and harmony are expressed through the common mind of the universal episcopate as the need arises. In all other matters, the internal life of each independent Church is administered by the bishops of that particular Church. Following the ancient principle of the one people of God in each place and the universal priesthood of all believers, the laity share equally in the responsibility for the preservation and propagation of the Christian faith and Church.
http://www.goarch.org/en/archdiocese/


There also seems to be some problems with this self-governing concept and the principles of concord and harmony between the various elements of just the Church in America.

Kevin Eckstrom wrote:
Greek Orthodox Prepare for Contentious Assembly in New York
― Call it My Big Fat Greek Charter Dispute ―

(Religion News Service (RNS) - 7/21/04) An ongoing tug-of-war between Greek Orthodox Church leaders and restive parishioners is poised to heat up next week when clergy and lay delegates converge on New York City for a biennial legislative assembly.

On the surface, the scuffle may seem little more than a family feud in a relatively small ethnic church. But, in many ways, the dispute holds important ramifications for what it means to be Orthodox in America as New World parishioners seek to loosen ties to Old World authority.

It also could delay long-cherished dreams for a single, autonomous, multiethnic Orthodox church in North America that would unite Orthodox faithful who are currently spread across nine separate churches.

Relations soured in February when 34 members of the U.S. archdiocese filed suit to block a new church charter, or constitution, that they insist is not the one they approved at the church's last assembly in 2002.
http://www.ocl.org/Greek%20Orthodox%20Prepare.htm


I guess it is somewhat like the Confederation in America's early history. As long as everybody agrees to agree, they're in agreement. But if any of the decentralized elements of authority disagrees, then the only way to resolve it, is to get everybody to willing agree. To me, when everyone gets to write their own rules, there are no rules.

There can be but one head.

_________________
Formerly LiveByFaithNotSight
1HCaAC = One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church
"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G. K. Chesterton


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 27 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


Jump to: