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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:04 am 
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Journeyman
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Greg gwf wrote:
Another interesting thing about Leviticus is number of times, in chapter 3-7, it says "the priest shall make atonement for sin."

Talk about forshadowing!

-Greg


First it's John 6, then it's Leviticus 3-7... two nights in a row I have just stumbled upon something that makes me understand the Catholic church just a little more. I read through parts of Leviticus last night before reading this thread. Crazy how someone would mention it today!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:05 am 
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Thanks everyone for your responses. Stephen, the link you posted looks very interesting, I look forward to reading through it this weekend.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:44 pm 
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ErikB wrote:
First it's John 6, then it's Leviticus 3-7... two nights in a row I have just stumbled upon something that makes me understand the Catholic church just a little more. I read through parts of Leviticus last night before reading this thread. Crazy how someone would mention it today!


Erik,

Yes it is (and glad to be of service). Welcome to DCF.

-Greg

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 pm 
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First, I must say that Mark's writing style reminds me a lot of the beginning Star Wars credits. "Jedi Knight LUKE SKYWALKER has returned to his home planet of Tatooine to face the vile gangster, JABBA THE HUTT." :) [/nerd]

Btw, are you sure levit.com is the proper address? I get another website entirely.

Back on topic, the writing of Leviticus makes more sense when the context of the time is considered. The Hebrew people had just escaped from Egypt, where the primary focus of life was primarily on death. Slaves and royalty alike worked their whole lives just to build fancy coffins and tombs. Yeah, doesn't that sound like fun. The Hebrew people wanted to distance themselves from what was literally a 'culture of death' by focusing on the preservation and sacredness of life. Their rules were made to reflect that attitude. That's why, for example, they forbid eating pork- which was often infected with disease and brought death.

As has been mentioned, the coming of Jesus was a fulfillment of the OT law. Also, it's possible the priest who walks by the beaten man in the Good Samaritan was avoiding touching a possible dead/unclean man per Leviticus-like rules, yet is nevertheless criticized by Jesus for not living in accordance with the spirit of the law, that is, the promotion and sanctity of life.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:21 pm 
I actually enjoyed Leviticus more than much of the New testament, i seemed to get more out of it. Id say its still a valid book for a walk with God and what not. (My two cents)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:03 am 
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Schokel wrote:
mark malone wrote:
paul was a student of hillel....


"I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cili'cia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gama'li-el,

I don't think that Gam'li-el and Hillel are the same person. (but an argument could be made that he was a student of the school of Hillel)

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

Gamaliel is rightly identified with an illustrious Jewish doctor of the Law, who bore the same name and died eighteen years before the destruction of Jerusalem. In the Talmud, this Gamaliel bears, like his grandfather Hillel, the surname of "the Elder", and is the first to whom the title "Rabban", "our master", was given. He appears therein, as in the book of the Acts, as a prominent member of the highest tribunal of the Jews.


the sanhedrin is the tribunal referred to...

exactly----Hillel was the leader of the Pharisees up until around 10 A.D.
and leader of the sanhedrin---just like gamaliel...

Yohkanan ben Zakkai, the leader at the council of jamnia, also was a student of hillel. This is where current synagoga rabbinical judaism got is start, after the temple was destroyed.

Hillel and Shammai were contemporary "foes", and paul and all other educated jews at the time would have been familiar with both of these men.

remember---PAUL HAD THE ZEAL to persecute the "way", until THE LORD got ahold of him ....

at the council of jamnia----any jew who followed the "nazarene" was considered the utmost traitor with disgust-----

and this was one of the "seeds" of separation of judaism and christianity...

and why the hellenistic jews of pauls journeys kept following him everywhere---they considered him "meneen"....

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:38 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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mark malone wrote:
Schokel wrote:
mark malone wrote:
paul was a student of hillel....


"I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cili'cia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gama'li-el,

I don't think that Gam'li-el and Hillel are the same person. (but an argument could be made that he was a student of the school of Hillel)

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

Gamaliel is rightly identified with an illustrious Jewish doctor of the Law, who bore the same name and died eighteen years before the destruction of Jerusalem. In the Talmud, this Gamaliel bears, like his grandfather Hillel, the surname of "the Elder", and is the first to whom the title "Rabban", "our master", was given. He appears therein, as in the book of the Acts, as a prominent member of the highest tribunal of the Jews.


the sanhedrin is the tribunal referred to...

exactly----Hillel was the leader of the Pharisees up until around 10 A.D.
and leader of the sanhedrin---just like gamaliel...

Yohkanan ben Zakkai, the leader at the council of jamnia, also was a student of hillel. This is where current synagoga rabbinical judaism got is start, after the temple was destroyed.

Hillel and Shammai were contemporary "foes", and paul and all other educated jews at the time would have been familiar with both of these men.

remember---PAUL HAD THE ZEAL to persecute the "way", until THE LORD got ahold of him ....

at the council of jamnia----any jew who followed the "nazarene" was considered the utmost traitor with disgust-----

and this was one of the "seeds" of separation of judaism and christianity...

and why the hellenistic jews of pauls journeys kept following him everywhere---they considered him "meneen"....


Mark,

Just a couple of comments. I can see that you are trying to make several points in the above comments, and some of them may even apply to my original clarifying comments on your original hillel post.

But it seems as though your comments could use a bit more lead in, otherwise I am left to guess, or perform some level of mindreading as to exactly what your point/s is/are.

Here is the point I am trying to make:

You say: "paul was a student of hillel.... "

I say: that statement is a littel sloppy, and Paul was specifically a student of Gamaliel.

Maybe we can work from there.

In Peace
Dan

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That is rather the fate of the man who thinks he knows what he does not know. For he accepts what is false as if it were true, and that is the essence of error.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:43 am 
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do you believe that Gamaliel was the successor to Hillel as "nasi" of the sanhedrin, and do you believe paul, a pharisee, would have been a student of both HIllel and Shammai, not necessarily ending up "supporting" either?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:02 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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mark malone wrote:
do you believe that Gamaliel was the successor to Hillel as "nasi" of the sanhedrin,

With the information that we have it is difficult say with any "great" degree of confidence as to whether Gamaliel actually held that particular definable postition. It appears Hillel probably did, but even that can be argued, (I tend to believe Hillel was a "nasi") depending which historical sources that you use.

mark malone wrote:
and do you believe paul, a pharisee, would have been a student of both HIllel and Shammai, not necessarily ending up "supporting" either?

His harshness of position (of course referencing pre-conversion) on some things would indicate an inclination towards Shammai, his stated position "at the feet of Gamaliel" indicates another. It would appear that the argument could be made that he probably had support for both positions. Which would fit nicely into God's plan IMO.

In Peace
Dan

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Certain remedies are so compounded as to be of value not merely against some single disease but against all; they are of universal efficacy. So it is with the Catholic faith. It is not a medicine for some special malady, but for every ill; --St. Hilary of Poitiers

That is rather the fate of the man who thinks he knows what he does not know. For he accepts what is false as if it were true, and that is the essence of error.
Augustine of Hippo


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:13 am 
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amen---I said the exact same thing on a messianic site....

and agree---scripturally---it is hard to prove with precise clarity that gamaliel was the "nasi".....but taken some jewish sources, and remembering scriptures pertaining to not only paul, but the pharisee, sanhedrin and saducees, and getting "limited" historical information from talmud(it wasnt meant to be historical), one could make "practical" conclusions to such---based on both pauls and peters writings, and how the "unbelieving" jews responded---even to stephen...

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 Post subject: Peter Falk Mentions Leviticus; and Best Mothers' Day Wishes
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2005 10:33 am 
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Journeyman
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waningrose wrote:
...... Over the past 7 years or so, I feel that I've aquainted myself quite well with the Bible. However, whenever I get into a discussion with peers about the Bible, they always dismiss it in the context of religion because no religion follows through with all of those rules set forth in Leviticus. ....


Interesting you should bring up Leviticus/Vayikra. The current weekly Shabbos readings ("sidrot," "parashiot") are in that book. The sedra for this Shabbos is "Kedoshim," holiness: chapters 19-20. Some topics of enduring interest not only to Jews but also to humanity-at-large from this sedra are:

- holiness and the imitation of G-d
- consideration for the poor
- duties toward fellow men
- love of neighbor
- love for the stranger

For those interested in very accessible, deeper readings into Leviticus see "Pentateuch & Haftorahs: Hebrew Text, English Translation, & Commentary," pages 497-508, published by Soncino Press and edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, ISBN 0-900689-21-8 (at least for the second edition, twenty-fourth impression).

And a bit of movie trivia: Peter Falk names Leviticus in one version (not all) of the original movie, "The Inlaws." Watch the scene in which he is presumably speaking Cantonese with his pilot/copilot team. In one cut, in the midst of a rapid string of imaginary words of instruction to them, he pronounces "Vayikra."

May you all have a good weekend, and may all mothers have a wonderful Mothers' Day. May you be honored and cherished more than ever.


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