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 Post subject: Leviticus
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:57 pm 
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I suppose this is a general Christianity question. Over the past 7 years or so, I feel that I've aquainted myself quite well with the Bible. However, whenever I get into a discussion with peers about the Bible, they always dismiss it in the context of religion because no religion follows through with all of those rules set forth in Leviticus. However, the way that I understood it was that when Jesus sacrificed himself, he relieved us of the need to follow those rules. Even more specifically, I don't see the book of Leviticus itself as a an exact blueprint, rather a lesson that we should not exclude God from any aspect of our lives, and that he has a real interest in knowing us and being a part of our lives. By knowing Jesus, there is no need for this kind of constant reminder that God is omnipotent.

I'm not sure if that just made sense, but it never seems to make sense when I explain it to them that way. Is my general interpretation correct? Also, did the Isrealites who were addressed in Leviticus and followed all of the rules enter the kindom of Heaven, or was that only possible in the New Testament?

Thanks!


Last edited by waningrose on Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:22 am 
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Is this an inappropriate question? I'm sorry. Feel free to delete if it is :oops:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:00 am 
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Yes, waningrose, it is an appropriate question. Just about any questions is appropriate on this board - particularly one's in which a person is seeking honest answers.

The New Covenent is a fulfillment of the old. We are to follow the revelation of God Incarnate (Jesus the Christ) through His Church. Some of the 'old' rules are still in effect (ten commandments, etc.).

THis is a week answer and doesn't really address your issue. I'm sure others will respond over the next few days.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:30 am 
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The Levitical law pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ as our High Priest. So it's importance lies in it's typology

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:32 am 
->


Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:08 am 
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dont ever "underestimate" the importance of EVERY scripture...

leviticus is a book given for the levites, one of the 12 tribes, who were to serve as priests in the temple/tabernacle, and shows many important premises to God'S CHOSEN PEOPLE.

It reveals the HOLINESS of God and showed requirements for FELLOWSHIP with him, so it also shows OUR SINFUL STATE and how we MAKE ATONEMENT---not literally---but in our SPIRITUAL WALK---it is a PERFECT REPRESENTATION for us now.

when reading---keep in mind how we make our relationship right with GOD---how do we make atonement.

the base word for the word "bring" offering is "qarab"---which means to DRAW NEAR. how do we DRAW NEAR to God?

I recommend you seek out a good book describing what the "SHADOWS" of the terminology and the meaning in how they pertain to our relationship with CHRIST.

I could do that here----but would probably be bumped off-----hahhahah---as you can tell most probably dont give most of the ot time of the day because "it doesnt pertain to us".....

well that is just 100% hogwash.....

as you read the "different types" of offerings---they each represent different way we present ourselves to God....with the MAIN IDEA REPENTENCE FOR ATONEMENT...

God PROVIDED THIS FOR ISRAEL TO SHOW THEM HOW , THROUGH THE MESSIAH/CHRIST, THAT ALL WHO "MADE OFFERINGS, WHICH RESULTED IN SACRIFICE, FOR ATONEMENT", WOULD EVENTUALLY BE CLEANSED BY THE "BLOOD OF THE LAMB"---JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

and one of your questions about "going to heaven"-----anyone who lives their life in FAITH=-----IS JUSTIED WITH GOD----THAT MEANS FOLLOWING THE LEVITICAL/MOSAIC LAW thru FAITH----KNOWING WHAT THE PURPOSE WAS.---made an israelite JUSTIFIED---the most important aspect of getting to the kingdom.

and you will see other old testament verses that state JUST THAT----IT WASNT THE RELIGOUS ROUTINE of making the offerings over and over----

FOR God TOLD THE ISRAELITES HE DESIRES MERCY---NOT SACRIFICE, and this verse that JESUS quoted he knew becaue HE AUTHORED IT IN

HOSEA 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU THE ISRAELITE/JEWS needed to do this to be saved is WRONG----

the words mercy and upright heart each appear about 3-400 times....

in the old testament.....

I , again, recommend you do a good deep study of this book and REVEAL IT=---

THE WORD TORAH(1st 5 books of bible) DOES NOT MEAN LAW----

TORAH MEANS REVELATION----THE REVELATION OF MESSIAH---JESUS CHRIST.

thats why the new testament always says that JESUS is the FULFILLMENT of the torah, and the law----

it has not gone away----just fulfilled-----JESUS IS TORAH.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:23 am 
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waningrose wrote:
Is this an inappropriate question? I'm sorry. Feel free to delete if it is :oops:


Ok first let me explain something, so you don't feel like you are being ignored. (and trust me, we all feel ignored at times)

You Posted at 10:00 p.m., some people actually sleep at night :)

The volume on the board is a little down lately, so it sometimes takes a while to get the response you looking for.

Be advised that not all who respond will be Catholics. It takes a bit to figure out who's who.

Welcome,

In Peace
Dan

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That is rather the fate of the man who thinks he knows what he does not know. For he accepts what is false as if it were true, and that is the essence of error.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:41 am 
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and never take anything over scripture---especially mans opinion or doctrine.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:55 am 
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mark malone wrote:
especially mans opinion.


Yeah, what he said ::): ::): ::):

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Certain remedies are so compounded as to be of value not merely against some single disease but against all; they are of universal efficacy. So it is with the Catholic faith. It is not a medicine for some special malady, but for every ill; --St. Hilary of Poitiers

That is rather the fate of the man who thinks he knows what he does not know. For he accepts what is false as if it were true, and that is the essence of error.
Augustine of Hippo


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:57 am 
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mark malone wrote:
and never take anything over scripture---especially mans opinion or doctrine.


Wow, Mark, it's unfortunate that you do! What a silly way to think - such a statement is unbiblical, unhistorical, and illogical (not to mention that it can't be done, even if you desired)...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:37 am 
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Schokel wrote:
Ok first let me explain something, so you don't feel like you are being ignored. (and trust me, we all feel ignored at times)

You Posted at 10:00 p.m., some people actually sleep at night :)

The volume on the board is a little down lately, so it sometimes takes a while to get the response you looking for.

Be advised that not all who respond will be Catholics. It takes a bit to figure out who's who.

Welcome,

In Peace
Dan


Thanks, I was worried that my last question was inappropriate, after I'd thought about it overnight. But I appreciate everyone's responses.

mark malone, are there any specific books that you would recommend?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:54 am 
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Quote:
are there any specific books that you would recommend?


this is not a book I have personally read, but I have heard good comments on that may be of help. Salvation click for link

I also have at home an older book called "Letters to Mr. Isaacs" that is very good from a jewish convert perspective, I'll try to check tonight on an answer to your original question, form a Jewish perspective.

In Peace
Dan

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Certain remedies are so compounded as to be of value not merely against some single disease but against all; they are of universal efficacy. So it is with the Catholic faith. It is not a medicine for some special malady, but for every ill; --St. Hilary of Poitiers

That is rather the fate of the man who thinks he knows what he does not know. For he accepts what is false as if it were true, and that is the essence of error.
Augustine of Hippo


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:40 pm 
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Another interesting thing about Leviticus is number of times, in chapter 3-7, it says "the priest shall make atonement for sin."

Talk about forshadowing!

-Greg

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:06 am 
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Student wrote:
mark malone wrote:
and never take anything over scripture---especially mans opinion or doctrine.


Wow, Mark, it's unfortunate that you do! What a silly way to think - such a statement is unbiblical, unhistorical, and illogical (not to mention that it can't be done, even if you desired)...


well if your werent chained and yoked, you would see the freedom of God'S WORD.

in JESUS' day----the pharisees had the same problem----and many of the people were led astray because of these "religious leaders" imposing "their' tradition, and people were 'blinded'/.... VERY SIMILAR TODAY in so called "christianity"----MANS WORD OVER GODS.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:16 am 
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I agree with shokel---if you find any converted jew to christianity that has a book written on it----

another thing you can do---if you have a good study bible----is either find all the side references in LEVITICUS to the new testament ---and vice-a versa.....

there is a websit----LEVIT.COM----by zola levit---and you can go and be a visitor just like here without posting----and in the 'EDUCATION FORUM'---there is a study done by 'EDMOD'----BK , mod here in this forum---has visited and posted....

on the book of leviticus---and other old testament books----you can get a fairly indepth perception of jewish/christian thought and terminology in invaluable....

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 Post subject: Re: Leviticus
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:56 am 
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waningrose wrote:
However, whenever I get into a discussion with peers about the Bible, they always dismiss it in the context of religion because no religion follows through with all of those rules set forth in Leviticus. However, the way that I understood it was that when Jesus sacrificed himself, he relieved us of the need to follow those rules.


Maybe one way to approach with your friends is from a fulfillment standpoint.

Matthew 5 (this is Jesus speaking)
17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.


So we need to understand what was meant by fulfillment and how was this accomplished (particularly from the view point, of the people of that time)

and also, I think it would be productive to introduce them in a small way to Covenant Theology, of which I profess no expertise, other than I know they existed.

Paul tells us in Hebrews 8
13 Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end.

It's important here to have an understanding of Jeremiah 31:31-31 as that is what he is referencing to.

31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:

32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void,(you may be able to develop the void part also in your explanation) and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

waningrose wrote:
Even more specifically, I don't see the book of Leviticus itself as a an exact blueprint, rather a lesson that we should not exclude God from any aspect of our lives, and that he has a real interest in knowing us and being a part of our lives. By knowing Jesus, there is no need for this kind of constant reminder that God is omnipotent.

I'm not sure if that just made sense, but it never seems to make sense when I explain it to them that way. Is my general interpretation correct? Also, did the Isrealites who were addressed in Leviticus and followed all of the rules enter the kindom of Heaven, or was that only possible in the New Testament?

Thanks!


Let's try developing a a slightly different angle:

1) an awareness of who Rabbi Hillel was will help Hillel His famousness in Jewish circles exists even today, as sometimes schools or students of higer Judaic learning will be called Hillel's

There is a story(and I am condensing it) that one day a heathen went to Hillel and challenged him to teach all that was in the Torah while standing on one foot. Hillel responded by saying (while on one foot I would guess) "What is hateful to thyself do not to another. This is the whole Torah; go and study it: the rest is commentary."

Now contrast this with what Jesus says: Matthew 7

12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.

That in a nutshell is the difference and the fullfillment of the Law/s of Leviticus

They (the Laws) taught and instructed in the Do Not's

Jesus and his Teachings in the New Testament instruct us to Do

Now obviously this will take some development by you, but it may help your friends to start to understand. Keep in mind you will probably be challenged in the Theme of how could God's Law be changed. So it shold be noted that by this time God's original Ten Commandments had grown (by the action of the Pharisee's) to 365 prohibitions.

This is already longer than I wished it to be, I hope it helps.

In Peace
Dan

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Certain remedies are so compounded as to be of value not merely against some single disease but against all; they are of universal efficacy. So it is with the Catholic faith. It is not a medicine for some special malady, but for every ill; --St. Hilary of Poitiers

That is rather the fate of the man who thinks he knows what he does not know. For he accepts what is false as if it were true, and that is the essence of error.
Augustine of Hippo


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:04 am 
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mark malone wrote:
well if your werent chained and yoked, you would see the freedom of God'S WORD.


Mark,

That really is not a very fair thing to say, and honestly it shows a gross misunderstanding of Catholicism. As I can personally attest, that since my conversion of several years ago, in which I assure you that there has been some dry spells, but I have never been more free spiritually or intellectually.

In Peace
Dan

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Certain remedies are so compounded as to be of value not merely against some single disease but against all; they are of universal efficacy. So it is with the Catholic faith. It is not a medicine for some special malady, but for every ill; --St. Hilary of Poitiers

That is rather the fate of the man who thinks he knows what he does not know. For he accepts what is false as if it were true, and that is the essence of error.
Augustine of Hippo


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 Post subject: Re: Leviticus
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:19 am 
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As requested by a board participant in private email: Jewish scholarship on Vayikra (a.k.a. Leviticus):

http://www.aish.com/torahportion/pArchive_hp.asp


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:13 am 
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paul was a student of hillel....

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:57 am 
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mark malone wrote:
paul was a student of hillel....


"I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cili'cia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gama'li-el,

I don't think that Gam'li-el and Hillel are the same person. (but an argument could be made that he was a student of the school of Hillel)

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

Gamaliel is rightly identified with an illustrious Jewish doctor of the Law, who bore the same name and died eighteen years before the destruction of Jerusalem. In the Talmud, this Gamaliel bears, like his grandfather Hillel, the surname of "the Elder", and is the first to whom the title "Rabban", "our master", was given. He appears therein, as in the book of the Acts, as a prominent member of the highest tribunal of the Jews.

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Certain remedies are so compounded as to be of value not merely against some single disease but against all; they are of universal efficacy. So it is with the Catholic faith. It is not a medicine for some special malady, but for every ill; --St. Hilary of Poitiers

That is rather the fate of the man who thinks he knows what he does not know. For he accepts what is false as if it were true, and that is the essence of error.
Augustine of Hippo


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