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 Post subject: Baptism
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:26 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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I have a protestant friend who insists that Romans 6 (below) "proves" that we must be baptized by immersion, and that it must be a believer's baptism. How can I answer her?

Quote:
How can we who died to sin yet live in it?
3
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4
We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
5
For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
6
We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin.
7
For a dead person has been absolved from sin.
8
If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.
9
We know that Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more; death no longer has power over him.
10
As to his death, he died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:32 pm 
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Here's a great site that uses the Sacred Scriptures to backup Catholic postitions...

Here's the relevant section...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:34 pm 
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Wow, that is an awesome website! Thanks so much!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:37 pm 
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You are very welcome. It has tons of Biblical backup for Catholicism.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:38 pm 
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Does your friend believe that when 3,000 were baptized by the Apostles in one day that they were all immersed? With what water?

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:15 pm 
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Blondie wrote:
I have a protestant friend who insists that Romans 6 (below) "proves" that we must be baptized by immersion, and that it must be a believer's baptism. How can I answer her?

While complete immersion is the fullest symbol of Baptism, other methods are also sufficient.
CCC (emphasis added) wrote:
1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head.
See also CCC 628 and 1262 for other mentions of baptismal immersion.

I like the joke, repeat joke, about the Catholic priest and the Baptist pastor discussing this point.
A joke wrote:
Catholic priest: Is immersion up to the chin sufficient?
Baptist pastor: No, full immersion is needed.

Catholic priest: Is immersion up to the nose sufficient?
Baptist pastor: No, full immersion is needed.

Catholic priest: Is immersion up to the hairline sufficient?
Baptist pastor: No, still not enough.

Catholic priest: See, only the water on the top of the head matters!



Edward Pothier


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:18 pm 
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good one, dr. ed.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:36 pm 
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immersion has always been a symbol of Christ's burial.

Clearly scriptural proof of other modes of baptism? St. Paul's!!
He was baptized standing up in a house! Immersion is impossible like that!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:51 pm 
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Never thought of St. Pauls baptisim, that's a great point coolmk

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 Post subject: Re: Baptism
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:07 pm 
Blondie wrote:
I have a protestant friend who insists that Romans 6 (below) "proves" that we must be baptized by immersion, and that it must be a believer's baptism. How can I answer her?

Quote:
How can we who died to sin yet live in it?
3
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4
We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
5
For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
6
We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin.
7
For a dead person has been absolved from sin.
8
If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.
9
We know that Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more; death no longer has power over him.
10
As to his death, he died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God.


Romans 6 does not say anything about immersion.

Moreover, the word "buried' in Greek really means "interred." Jesus was interred in an above-ground tomb, not buried over with dirt.

Although immersion was likely the preferred method of baptism in the early church, it does not appear it was the only mode of baptism. But you cannot decisively prove anything on this matter from the Bible. One can make a case for either mode from Scripture but in the end you can't prove immersion. One must look to early church tradition for the answer.

The Flood and the Red Sea are typologies of baptism. In both cases, the righteous were saved through the water and the unrighteous judged through the water. Our baptism represents separation of the righteousness of spirit from the unrighteousness of flesh.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:29 pm 
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This is an issue with my parents as well. They argue that the Greek word baptizo literally means to immerse and immersion is the only logical way to represent Christ’s death, burial and resurrection. I am not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination but I did point out to them that Gospel of Matthew speaks of how Jesus didn’t baptizo his hands before eating and Christ speaks of his death as a Baptizo. It seemed to me that baptism was more of a spiritual cleansing than an actual immersion. Legalistic bible-only Christians want to concern themselves over the form rather then the function. I noted to them about a Greek source I found which said that their best source they had for the explanation of baptism came from a pickle recipe. While the recipe seems to call for a full immersion its purpose was to show that there was to be a permanent change. This is really what baptism is: A spiritual cleansing which results in a permanent change. It is an outward sign of an inward faith regardless if it is immersed or poured.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:23 am 
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The other thing is the etymology of a word does not necessarily indicate the meaning of the word. Rather you have to look at its common usage. In the NT, there is no doubt that baptism is an initiation into the new covenant, which means becoming an adopted son of God and in order to become an adopted son you must me made like your adopted father who is holy. Thus baptism effects regeneration of the soul. That is its function. Its form is only a secondary matter. And if you see how Paul was baptized, immersion was impossible. The prophesy of baptism in Ezekiel says sprinkling and the first century didache says baptism by pouring is valid. Even the Anabaptists, who first initiated believer’s baptism, allowed baptism by pouring and sprinkling.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:22 pm 
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coolmk20x wrote:
The prophesy of baptism in Ezekiel says sprinkling and the first century didache says baptism by pouring is valid.


Do you happen to know what this verse is? This could be very helpful to me. I guess I could stop being lazy and read the book myself but that is to much like work.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:03 pm 
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Ezekiel 36:25: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. (NAB)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:19 pm 
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Thank you.

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