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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:29 am 
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Frankly, we Christians aren't all that interested in Old Covenant relics like the Ark of the Covenant

Yeah, I`m with the other people who say they are interested, on a personal and theological level, since it would be irrefutable proof of God`s contact with man through Moses, and on a scientific level since it would be one of the greatest arceological discoveries in history.


"That belongs in a museum...!"

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:32 am 
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The sheer fact that the arc of the covenant was the throne of God on Earth for a period of time makes it of tremendous importance. At one point in time it was the holiest thing on this planet, and to deny that historical and theological importance is just ignorant. Now, does it play an important part in our active faith. No. It's not essential for the Christian faith. I was even missing when Christ was born. So, it's not necessary. However, it would be an extremely important and holy relic.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:47 am 
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Thankyou Wolfguard, and Zach, I was tongue tied. Frankly I was so nonplussed that someone like 'carp would say something like that I didn't know how to respond.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:39 am 
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Yeah, I`m with the other people who say they are interested, on a personal and theological level, since it would be irrefutable proof of God`s contact with man through Moses,


If the uncountable proofs that God has already provided mankind aren't sufficient, why would the discovery that God has allowed the Ark to become the equivalent of a broken cuneiform tablet or a potsherd be any more likely to convince people of God's contact with man through Moses? The most it could do is provide further support for what we've already known all along through Holy Writ. It wouldn't melt our faces off like in that wonderful Indiana Jones flick, since God does not work through the Ark any longer, nor will He ever again.

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and on a scientific level since it would be one of the greatest arceological discoveries in history.


Very true. On a scientific level, not on a religious one.

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The sheer fact that the arc of the covenant was the throne of God on Earth for a period of time makes it of tremendous importance.


Shiloh also was for a period of time the throne of God on earth, but when was the last time you made a pilgrimage to Shiloh?

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At one point in time it was the holiest thing on this planet, and to deny that historical and theological importance is just ignorant.


Yes, it would be ignorant to deny that -- but then nobody in this thread has denied that it used to be the holiest thing on this planet, but is no longer the holiest thing on this planet. Indeed, it may not even be on this planet any more.

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Now, does it play an important part in our active faith. No. It's not essential for the Christian faith.


Yep. As I have been saying.

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I was even missing when Christ was born.


So was I. :P

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So, it's not necessary. However, it would be an extremely important and holy relic.


A very important artifact, yes, but the remains of the Ark would not be a holy relic, since the Old Covenant has been fulfilled by the New, and the implements associated with the former sacrificial service and covenant no longer have any active role in the faith.

The fact that so many people still fixate on the Ark after 2,600 years may help explain why God has removed it from all sight and experience. He wants us to kneel in adoration before His Real Presence, not before a priceless religious artifact that no longer holds His Presence.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:41 am 
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Frankly I was so nonplussed that someone like 'carp would say something like that I didn't know how to respond.


Pythia, I'm not aware of having said anything in this thread is that is not true. Could you help me out here?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:31 am 
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Polycarp wrote:
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Yeah, I`m with the other people who say they are interested, on a personal and theological level, since it would be irrefutable proof of God`s contact with man through Moses,


If the uncountable proofs that God has already provided mankind aren't sufficient, why would the discovery that God has allowed the Ark to become the equivalent of a broken cuneiform tablet or a potsherd be any more likely to convince people of God's contact with man through Moses?


Equivalent of a broken potsherd???


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The sheer fact that the arc of the covenant was the throne of God on Earth for a period of time makes it of tremendous importance.

Shiloh also was for a period of time the throne of God on earth, but when was the last time you made a pilgrimage to Shiloh?


Infact it remains a holy place, and I happen to know people who risk their lives, living there for just that reason.


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A very important artifact, yes, but the remains of the Ark would not be a holy relic, since the Old Covenant has been fulfilled by the New, and the implements associated with the former sacrificial service and covenant no longer have any active role in the faith.


You're wrong since the Church teaches that the covenant God made with the Jews has not been revoked.
Therefore, to be so glib about something so clearly holy, is astonishing, especially from one who claims to have a "Jewish heart".....whatever....


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:28 pm 
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If the uncountable proofs that God has already provided mankind aren't sufficient, why would the discovery that God has allowed the Ark to become the equivalent of a broken cuneiform tablet or a potsherd be any more likely to convince people of God's contact with man through Moses? The most it could do is provide further support for what we've already known all along through Holy Writ.

That`s exactly my point. It would reaffirm what I believe, and be proof for non-believers.

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God does not work through the Ark any longer, nor will He ever again.

Isn`t that up to Him to decide?

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On a scientific level, not on a religious one.

Why not a religious level? Without the original ark, without the Old Covenant, there is no New Covenant. It`d be segnificant to both Jews and Christians.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:53 pm 
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Equivalent of a broken potsherd???


Yes, that's basically what Zach said when he referred to the scenario of finding the Ark as an archaeological discovery. That would imply searching and digging and excavation, with site reports being prepared and papers being published in peer review journals. It would imply that the Ark is buried somewhere, in some cave perhaps, like the sarcophagus and grave goods of Tutankhamen. I happen to believe that God cared more for the Ark than to let it be reduced to archaeological artifacts -- He either had it totally destroyed in 586 B.C., or else, as II Maccabees says, had Jeremiah conceal it beyond the confines of this world, and/or took it up to heaven. Whatever the case, it's gone from this world forever -- at least if Holy Scripture can be trusted.

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In fact it remains a holy place, and I happen to know people who risk their lives, living there for just that reason.


Again, Jer. 3 indicates that God no longer invests any special interest in Shiloh.

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A very important artifact, yes, but the remains of the Ark would not be a holy relic, since the Old Covenant has been fulfilled by the New, and the implements associated with the former sacrificial service and covenant no longer have any active role in the faith.


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You're wrong since the Church teaches that the covenant God made with the Jews has not been revoked.


I didn't say, nor do I believe, that the covenant was revoked. I said it was fulfilled. That's an indisputable doctrine of the faith. Read the epistle to the Hebrews to find out a good deal of the Church's beliefs regarding the abiding value of the Old Covenant. The Ark was a shadow of things to come, and was modeled or patterned on heavenly realities -- when the reality, that is, the Incarnation, arrived, the shadow had to fade away.

The Incarnation put flesh on the "skeleton" of the Old Covenant, the ministration of death. I'd much rather gaze upon the living flesh of Jesus, the New Covenant, than to look at dry bones.

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Therefore, to be so glib about something so clearly holy, is astonishing, especially from one who claims to have a "Jewish heart".....whatever....


To the extent that the hearts of Jesus and Mary dwell in my heart, my heart is Jewish. Who cannot love the people and faith of Israel when the Jewish hearts of Our Lord and Our Lady dwell in him?

As for glibness, I can assure you that my comments here did not come from little thought, preparation, or concern, nor are they marked by a quickness or fluency that suggests or stems from insincerity or deception (that's how my dictionary defines "glib"). So I would invite you once more to please explain how my comments in this thread are mistaken.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:02 pm 
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God does not work through the Ark any longer, nor will He ever again.

Isn`t that up to Him to decide?


Of course -- but see Jer. 3:16 and Rev. 11-12, not to mention Hebrews, Galatians, and II Corinthians. He already made clear His decision long, long ago.

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Why not a religious level? Without the original ark, without the Old Covenant, there is no New Covenant. It`d be segnificant to both Jews and Christians.


True, without the Ark of the Old Covenant there wouldn't have been an Ark of the New Covenant, in the sense of the chronological flow of cause-and-effect in history. But without the New Covenant, there would never have been an Old Covenant, because the whole reason God gave Israel the Old Covenant was to prepare a people for the coming of the Messiah, who is the New Covenant. If it weren't for Jesus, the Old Covenant would have been an exercise in futility. Indeed, on one level it might be described as an exercise in futility -- and deliberately so on God's part -- because the Law was incapable of bringing salvation or taking away sins. It would be like reading a novel that was left unfinished by the author when he died -- no matter how great the finished part of the novel is, there would always be a sense of disappointment and longing and if-only from wondering what the story would have been like if the author could have finished it.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:27 pm 
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Mary is the Ark of the new Covenant as Christ is the foundation of the novel! Jesus and Mary can not be separated!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:46 pm 
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To the extent that the hearts of Jesus and Mary dwell in my heart, my heart is Jewish. Who cannot love the people and faith of Israel when the Jewish hearts of Our Lord and Our Lady dwell in him?



This is sugar coated tripe and you know it. Until pretty recently there were plenty of people who were devoted to the Sacred Hearts of Mary and Jesus who had no love whatsoever for "the people and faith of Israel ".

I am not arguing against the Real Presence of the Lord or whether Mary is the Ark of the Covenant, but I think you have ice in your veins when it comes to understanding the People of Israel.

I think you and I have had difficulties about things like this before, which is why I find it very surprising that you subscribe to the AHC mail list. What is it you hope to learn there or are you some sort of watch dog to make sure we don't get too Jewish?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:56 pm 
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Pythia wrote:
Quote:

To the extent that the hearts of Jesus and Mary dwell in my heart, my heart is Jewish. Who cannot love the people and faith of Israel when the Jewish hearts of Our Lord and Our Lady dwell in him?



This is sugar coated tripe and you know it. Until pretty recently there were plenty of people who were devoted to the Sacred Hearts of Mary and Jesus who had no love whatsoever for "the people and faith of Israel ".

I am not arguing against the Real Presence of the Lord or whether Mary is the Ark of the Covenant, but I think you have ice in your veins when it comes to understanding the People of Israel.

I think you and I have had difficulties about things like this before, which is why I find it very surprising that you subscribe to the AHC mail list. What is it you hope to learn there or are you some sort of watch dog to make sure we don't get too Jewish?


I think true Jews are those who recognize the true Messiah! The Old Testament traditions are baseless without the fullfillment!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:19 pm 
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Yeah, Defender....you're a real charm school graduate as well.

Seeing as I am about a week away from being recieved into the Catholic Church, I will retire from this discussion, lest you and your ilk put me right off.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:03 pm 
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This is sugar coated tripe and you know it. Until pretty recently there were plenty of people who were devoted to the Sacred Hearts of Mary and Jesus who had no love whatsoever for "the people and faith of Israel ".


I'm not talking about devotion to the Sacred Hearts of Mary and Jesus. I'm talking about having a living, vital, authentic relationship with Mary and Jesus.

Have you read Karl Stern's The Fire That Consumes?

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I am not arguing against the Real Presence of the Lord or whether Mary is the Ark of the Covenant,


I never said nor implied that you were.

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but I think you have ice in your veins when it comes to understanding the People of Israel.


You seem to know a lot about things of which you know virtually nothing. Saying I have ice in my veins is very hurtful.

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I think you and I have had difficulties about things like this before, which is why I find it very surprising that you subscribe to the AHC mail list. What is it you hope to learn there or are you some sort of watch dog to make sure we don't get too Jewish?


Your suspicions are without good reason and uncalled for. I subscribe to the AHC list because I believe Catholics can only be enriched through a greater knowledge of the Jewish foundations of the faith, and because it is my hope that eventually the Church can recognise a full-fledged Hebrew Catholic Rite, or at least a Hebrew Catholic religious community. The historical approach to Jewish conversion to Catholicism -- whereby the Jewish convert is expected to abandon every trace of his religious culture, whereas Gentiles have never been held to such a standard, was simply unjust. It will be to the advantage of the Church, and of the world, if the Church makes as much room for Jewish converts as She has for Gentile converts -- especially if we wish to see a fulfillment of St. Paul's affirmation that "all Israel shall be saved."

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:13 pm 
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The historical approach to Jewish conversion to Catholicism -- whereby the Jewish convert is expected to abandon every trace of his religious culture, whereas Gentiles have never been held to such a standard, was simply unjust. It will be to the advantage of the Church, and of the world, if the Church makes as much room for Jewish converts as She has for Gentile converts -- especially if we wish to see a fulfillment of St. Paul's affirmation that "all Israel shall be saved."


Fine, but then don't act so flippant about such important aspects of our culture as the Ark of the Covenant.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:23 pm 
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I was not acting in a flippant manner, and I am sorry if I gave you that impression. I have been trying to discuss what the Bible says, and what the Church teaches, about the fate and destiny of the Ark of the Covenant.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:14 pm 
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Pythia wrote:
Yeah, Defender....you're a real charm school graduate as well.

Seeing as I am about a week away from being recieved into the Catholic Church, I will retire from this discussion, lest you and your ilk put me right off.


Where did you graduate from? Dogpatch USA! Praise God for you coming to the Church, but I hope you will not retire too soon! You might actually learn something!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:16 pm 
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Like Humility!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:48 pm 
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"Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teaching. It is good to have our hearts strengthened by grace and not by foods, which do not benefit those who live by them. We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat..." In every Catholic Church there is the tabernacle where the body of the Lord is. This is greater than the Ark of the Old Covenant!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 pm 
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catholic defender wrote:
" This is greater than the Ark of the Old Covenant!


So who said otherwise? Stick a sock in it, Defender.


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