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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 pm 
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Pythia wrote:
catholic defender wrote:
" This is greater than the Ark of the Old Covenant!


So who said otherwise? Stick a sock in it, Defender.


Nobody, just a statement of fact that I hoped you would accept! You wouldn't want to see my socks after running 6 miles and 100 pushups and setups! My wife makes sure that I shower up real good! God loves ya!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:20 pm 
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Have you read Karl Stern's The Fire That Consumes?


Eek. Talk about a brain fart. That's Pillar of Fire. I'm constantly mixing up the titles of those two books.

For everyone's information, Fire That Consumes is a book by evangelical scholar Edward Fudge, arguing in favor of the heresy of conditional immortality. Pillar of Fire is the spiritual autobiography of Karl Stern, who converted from Orthodox Judaism to Catholicism, and is well worthy reading if you'd like a better understanding of both Judaism and Catholicism, not to mention a better understanding of the disastrous 20th century.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:19 pm 
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Of course -- but see Jer. 3:16 and Rev. 11-12, not to mention Hebrews, Galatians, and II Corinthians. He already made clear His decision long, long ago.

I wouldn`t put it past Him to change His mind, y`know, Him being a God and all. The point is that just because the Ark isn`t His g-ride anymore, doesn`t make the Ark anything less on any level. If God touched a rock in the Old Testament and you had your hands on it, would you toss it aside because it`s not a piece of the cross Jesus was crusified on?

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True, without the Ark of the Old Covenant there wouldn't have been an Ark of the New Covenant, in the sense of the chronological flow of cause-and-effect in history. But without the New Covenant, there would never have been an Old Covenant, because the whole reason God gave Israel the Old Covenant was to prepare a people for the coming of the Messiah, who is the New Covenant.

I rest my case. That`s proof of the importance of such an object.

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If it weren't for Jesus, the Old Covenant would have been an exercise in futility. Indeed, on one level it might be described as an exercise in futility -- and deliberately so on God's part -- because the Law was incapable of bringing salvation or taking away sins. It would be like reading a novel that was left unfinished by the author when he died -- no matter how great the finished part of the novel is, there would always be a sense of disappointment and longing and if-only from wondering what the story would have been like if the author could have finished it.

I dunno about that because I`ve heard Brian Herbert has done a great job writing the new Dune novels...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:06 pm 
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Well, God never changes His mind -- it's anthropomorphic language to say that He does, and we really have to use that kind of language, because otherwise it would be pretty hard to talk about Him.

God's will in this matter is expressed concretely in the fact that, as I've said, we've gon 2,600 years without the Ark. The Ark itself is mentioned in history from the time of Moses, circa 1440 B.C., down to 586 B.C. That's less than 1,000 years.

His will is also expressed in the New Testament's teachings about the way the Old Covenant was designed only as preparation for the New. Now, in the Scriptures, we find fewer and fewer references to the Ark as time goes on, until we come to II Maccabees, which relates the tradition that God had Jeremiah miraculously conceal the Ark in the same cave where God had previously concealed Moses' body. The tradition is that the location of the Ark would remain unknown until the time of the redemption of the tribes of Israel.

The next place we find "Ark" language is the Annunciation, when the Holy Spirit "overshadows" Mary in the same way God used to "overshadow" the Ark. As a result of that overshadowing, Mary has the Word become flesh within her, just as the Ark used to have the tablets of the Ten Words inside it.

Then we come to St. John's visions in Rev. 11-12, when St. John sees the Ark in God's Temple in heaven -- and right after that, St. John looks and sees the Woman clothed with the sun, who gives birth to the Man Child who is carried off to heaven. This is one of the reasons why Catholics have believed in the Assumption of Mary -- the Ark is seen in heaven, and the Mary, the true Ark, is seen in heaven right after the Ark is seen.

Now, what kind of abiding religious significance can there be in one of the Old Covenant's most important implements, if there have been these kinds of developments in salvation history, beginning with the disappearance of the Ark in 586 B.C.? And why expect to find the Ark anywhere on earth -- what if God has removed it from this earth, even as Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven? It would, perhaps, be fitting if God took the Ark to heaven, since that could have served as a type of Mary's assumption. On the other hand, we have to seriously consider the possibility that God had the Ark destroyed, even as He had the two Temples destroyed, and Shiloh destroyed, and Jerusalem destroyed.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:26 pm 
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Polycarp wrote:
what if God has removed it from this earth, even as Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven? It would, perhaps, be fitting if God took the Ark to heaven, since that could have served as a type of Mary's assumption. On the other hand, we have to seriously consider the possibility that God had the Ark destroyed, even as He had the two Temples destroyed, and Shiloh destroyed, and Jerusalem destroyed.


There is good evidence the Ark has been found. Rabbis Shlomo Goren and Yehuda Getz found it in 1981 , and it has been sealed back up because it would have precipitated a major war.

I asked my priest about what he thought the Church's position on the Ark would be, and he agreed that it would be considered a holy relic. It wouldn't change the Faith, but we wouldn't so casually dismiss it's importance either. As he said, "if the Holy Father could go to Jerusalem and pray at the Western Wall, I am sure if the Ark were to be found it would also be treated with the utmost respect.

Polycarp, it's your insensitivity I am objecting to. I believe God has the plans for Israel (regular Israel, not Defender's "true Israel, blah blah blah) just the way He wants them. He is the one who determines the fate of both nations and individuals. The bible says "all Israel will be saved"and I hold on to that. You folks can spiritualize it all you want but I take a more practical view.....after all , this is my family we are talking about.

It's like this:

Imagine you were Irish, and the Catholic Church was the Protestants......and all the Saints were like Oliver Cromwell. You'd have a problem with that, wouldn't you?

That is what my world is like.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:37 pm 
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So then you would throw away the rock that God had touched?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:12 am 
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There is good evidence the Ark has been found. Rabbis Shlomo Goren and Yehuda Getz found it in 1981, and it has been sealed back up because it would have precipitated a major war.


I've heard that story as well. We'll just have to wait and see if it's true.

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I asked my priest about what he thought the Church's position on the Ark would be, and he agreed that it would be considered a holy relic. It wouldn't change the Faith, but we wouldn't so casually dismiss it's importance either.


I have not casually dismissed its importance. I have stated, however, that the Catholic faith in particular, and the Jewish faith as well, does not need the Ark at all.

Now, of course the remains of the Ark, if they still exist, would be the occasion of great interest, and would receive great honor from Christians as well as Jews, if such a discovery were to be made. Catholics in particular view the whole world as holy, because God blessed it with His presence and His love, and that therefore particular objects from salvation history ought to be venerated. But God has already said that the Ark will not play any part in our religion again, so it's difficult to hold out any hope that the Ark will ever be found.

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I believe God has the plans for Israel (regular Israel, not Defender's "true Israel, blah blah blah)


That's an objectionable attitude to take towards one of the doctrines of the faith. I may not be the only one here who is being insensitive.

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just the way He wants them. He is the one who determines the fate of both nations and individuals. The bible says "all Israel will be saved"and I hold on to that. You folks can spiritualize it all you want but I take a more practical view.....after all, this is my family we are talking about.


I do not "spiritualise it." St. Paul said what he meant and meant what he said -- all Israel, by which he meant Israel after the flesh as well as the Gentiles who have been grafted into the Israelite family tree, shall be saved. Someone here recently attacked me when I pointed out that the Church teaches the conversion of the Jews must precede the return of Christ (CCC 674).

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It's like this:

Imagine you were Irish, and the Catholic Church was the Protestants......and all the Saints were like Oliver Cromwell. You'd have a problem with that, wouldn't you?

That is what my world is like.


Yes, indeed that would be hard for anyone. That's why I asked you if you had read Karl Stern's book (although I'd garbled the title). He had to grapple with the same thing, the same scandal of, say, saints like Hilary and Chrysostom spewing bilge about the souls of Jews being the dwellingplaces of demons and things like that -- even as he was drawn to accept that the Messianic Kingdom subsists in the Catholic Church.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:15 am 
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So then you would throw away the rock that God had touched?


Depends on which rock we're talking about, when He touched it, and why. There is an awfully huge pile of rocks in the universe that He has touched. I can't keep them all -- where would I put them?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:24 am 
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exodus 25:10-22 covers how the ark and the atonement cover (known also as the mercy seat) was to be built and its significance...

keep this in mind---hebrews 8:5 says the sanctuary and the things of the sanctuary in of the tanakh(o.t) are a "shadow" of what is in heaven....

after reading the verses 1-20 of exodus 25..I suggest write down details and picture what is being said---if you have a image---than use that for reference...

21) Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you.
22)There, above the cover(mercy seat) between the two cherubim(where the glory of God IS) that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will "meet with you" and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

remember the "shadow"
remember the mercy seat
remember I will "meet with you"....
and most of all---realize the atonement cover is a "seat".....the mercy seat.....

hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace in our time of need

this is the mercy seat---the throne of grace---

why are we to approach this throne?---and who is on this throne?---and who will give us mercy?
how do we approach this throne?

ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

rev 11:19
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of the covenant.

now the ark is in heaven---it has the mercy seat, and who do we approach to obtain mercy and grace?

GOD---in the form of JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD--who ascended and sits at the right hand of the father...

HE "SITS"....on the mercy seat--in between the cherubim where the glory of God is---and we are to approach him with confidence to obtain grace and mercy---and obtain freedom from our bondage of sin....

I believe the bible for what it says----in mans eyes---the ark is nothing but a "treasure"---a value on something "PRICELESS" in our relationship with JESUS.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:57 am 
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Ha ha! I only elluded to one rock. Does it really matter why God touches a rock? Point is it`s an object which was touched by God, hence its significance. Moreover, even if God physically touched a mountain of rocks, that make it a Holy Mountain of rocks - nuff said.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:57 am 
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Wolfguard wrote:
Ha ha! I only elluded to one rock. Does it really matter why God touches a rock? Point is it`s an object which was touched by God, hence its significance. Moreover, even if God physically touched a mountain of rocks, that make it a Holy Mountain of rocks - nuff said.


Sometimes the rocks that God touches is our hearts! Let Him pierce through that heart of stone so it can be rolled away like Easter!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:35 am 
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Polycarp, first off, don't ever put words into my mouth. I have never said that the Arc was or is "the equivalent of a broken potsherd". Second, you seem to be the spokesman for the church, I suggest you get off of your soapbox. The church has never made a statement on how it would regard the arc shoud it ever be found. Also, you seem to be so indefferent, that you would throw away any relic that didn't have a direct tie to Christ. If somebody found an ancient manuscript of the book of Exodus, you would toss it in the trash. On that note as well, the Arc of the Covenant does have a direct tie in with Christ, in that it was His throne for some time as well (because Christ is God!). To imply that a relic of such great importance is simply insignificant on a religious level is not only ignorant, it's just down right stupid.

And Pythia, hang in there, we're not all as bull headed and insensitive towards the Jewish people as defender and Polycarp.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:31 am 
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the most valuable thing God should touch is our heart---

our heart should be HOLY.....

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:44 am 
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Polycarp, first off, don't ever put words into my mouth. I have never said that the Arc was or is "the equivalent of a broken potsherd".


Yes, you did. You called it an archaeological discovery. That's what your words mean, whether you like it or not.

Quote:
Second, you seem to be the spokesman for the church, I suggest you get off of your soapbox. The church has never made a statement on how it would regard the arc shoud it ever be found.


That's because She doesn't need to make rulings on purely hypothetical or unlikely things.

I suggest you try and interact with the scriptures and doctrines I've been referring to, and not change the subject of this thread from the Ark of the Covenant to just how vile and wicked an individual Polycarp is. Ad hominem is a diversionary tactic for those who have no argument or don't want to do the work to get one.

Quote:
Also, you seem to be so indefferent, that you would throw away any relic that didn't have a direct tie to Christ. If somebody found an ancient manuscript of the book of Exodus, you would toss it in the trash.


Now you're just being silly. And you complain about my putting words in your mouth, when you act like you can read my mind and know what I would and wouldn't do.

Quote:
On that note as well, the Arc of the Covenant does have a direct tie in with Christ, in that it was His throne for some time as well (because Christ is God!). To imply that a relic of such great importance is simply insignificant on a religious level is not only ignorant, it's just down right stupid.


And yet the fact remains that if the Ark were ever found, it would have no central role in the Christian religion, just as it has played no role in Christian rites at any time in history, and has played no role in Jewish rites since it disappeared in 586 B.C.

Quote:
And Pythia, hang in there, we're not all as bull headed and insensitive towards the Jewish people as defender and Polycarp.


Zach, may I remind you that slander and calumny are mortal sins?

It would appear that you have nothing constructive or edifying to offer to this discussion.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:05 am 
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That's enough bickering.

Pythia, many of us are converts from Protestantism and many of us have family members who are still Protestant or non-Catholic. It is wrong to assume that we don't know what it feels like to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

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