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 Post subject: Praying in mortal sin
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:09 pm 
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Is it possible when in a state of mortal sin, to still be able to pray to God for yourself and for other people, and for the Holy Spirit to work through you doing good things? I'm a little confused on the whole breaking of the relationship with God. Does this mean hes not listening until you go absolved? And hes not active in your life until then?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:13 pm 
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He is active in that he is sending you graces to come back to him and your prayers will increase those graces. The good works that you do will also help to restore your relationship with God.

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Whence are we to find words enough fully to tell the happiness of that marriage which the Church cements, and the Eucharistic oblation confirms, and the benediction signs and seals; which angels carry back the news of to heaven, which the Father holds as ratified? -Tertullian

Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:18 pm 
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Thats what I assumed, but I read some tihngs that made me unsure, thanks for clearin that up!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:53 pm 
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The good works that you do will also help to restore your relationship with God.


so that protestants dont have heart attacks over this line, we need to explain that doing good works helps restore our relationship with God because through the works of charity we are cooperating with God's grace that is working within us to bring us back. We must allow him to work with us. Refusing to do works of charity would mean that you have refused to let God's grace do what it intends to do. God must respect our free will because that is the nature of a covenant. It wouldn't be a covenant if he forced us like robots.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:54 pm 
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Does God work in those who are in a state of mortal sin? Consider this - if God the Holy Spirit were NOT working in a person who was in a state of mortal sin, how or why would that person ever repent at all? However, it is clear that people who are in a state of mortal sin DO repent - and the grace necessary for repentance was certainly not self-generated!

So I think we can chalk this one up as a "definitely YES".


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:58 pm 
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we have to differentiate between actual and sanctifying grace. It is actual grace that moves the sinner to repent and have faith and charity and seek absolution. Once the sinner has cooperated, then he is re-justified and infused with sanctifying grace.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:05 pm 
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its wonfderful and amazing :D


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:55 am 
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coolmk20x wrote:
we have to differentiate between actual and sanctifying grace.


We "have to"? Unless one is trying to make the unusual (and wrong) argument that actual grace does not also come from God, I do not see why we "have to" make this differentiation at all in order to understand the basic idea that God the Holy Spirit works in our souls even when we are still sinners (which was the question), and that a sinner's desire to repent follows as a result of the grace given him by God.

Custos


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 Post subject: Re: Praying in mortal sin
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:04 am 
thecullscm wrote:
Is it possible when in a state of mortal sin, to still be able to pray to God for yourself and for other people, and for the Holy Spirit to work through you doing good things? I'm a little confused on the whole breaking of the relationship with God. Does this mean hes not listening until you go absolved? And hes not active in your life until then?


I think that this is an excellent question.

Let me ask you a question: Assuming that you do now (or may in the future) have children, if one of your children commits a sin against you, are you more apt to write them off completely unless they come back to you begging for forgiveness, or are you more apt to go searching for them to restore them to communion with you? Will you give them stones instead of bread until they have made an act of contrition? Do you renounce them as members of your family, locking them out of the house, until they stand in the snow for three days in repentance? (gee, sounds like I heard that once in a history book...)

Chances are that you'll do none of the cruel things I listed above...and remember that God is infinitely more perfect in His love and mercy. Scripture reminds us that it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. Repentance, remember, is a process of turning away from sin or "conversion". Confession and absolution are the crowning moments of repentance and conversion, but the process should begin right away once you have sinned. ANd we are in need of God's grace and strength to repent, so He must be listening! (I remember a friend once saying that he would pray to God , "Help me to want to want to repent!" Even that is a worthy prayer, especially when our own interior dispositions tend to relish in whatever sin we have committed.) Conversion should also continue even after confession.

The question of whether actions can be "meritorious" in the state of mortal sin should not be of any concern, really. The goal is to return to Christ. Let Him worry about the relative "merits" or spiritual value of any action. And the Spirit blows where He wills...if he can speak through Barlaam's ass, he can work with broken instruments like us!

My two cents...

Gordo :twisted:


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 Post subject: Say goodnight, Gracie!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:16 am 
Custos wrote:
coolmk20x wrote:
we have to differentiate between actual and sanctifying grace.


My eyes actually start to roll in the back of my head when people start picking apart the different types of grace that exist and from where each type originates. Perhaps I'm missing the pastoral benefit of such fine theological distinctions (not picking on you, Custos, just on the Western tradition in general). Maybe I'm just too simple (or simplistic), but I doubt that Christ ever expounded the finer points of created and uncreated, sanctifying and actual grace with His disciples. Not that there is no value at all in these distinctions, but by and large I think many people find them confusing and not especially worthwhile.

Of course, it could be that it is just a late hour here and I should be off to bed!

Pace e' bene!

Gordo


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 Post subject: Re: Say goodnight, Gracie!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:05 am 
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CaelumJR wrote:
My eyes actually start to roll in the back of my head when people start picking apart the different types of grace that exist and from where each type originates. ... (not picking on you, Custos, just on the Western tradition in general).


I would certainly hope you are not picking on ME because I was not the one who claimed we had to differentitate between types of grace. The person who said that we had to differentiate was coolmk20. You seem now to be attributing his opinions to me, because the only portion of my post that you quoted was -- the quote from him that I was disputing!!! My whole point (which seems to have gone clean over your head) was that such fine distinctions were totally unnecessary to answering the question asked.

I will, however, be glad to pick on you if your post indicates that you hold that any type of grace, no matter what kind it is, has any origin other than God.

Custos


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 Post subject: Re: Praying in mortal sin
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:36 am 
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thecullscm wrote:
Is it possible when in a state of mortal sin, to still be able to pray to God for yourself and for other people, and for the Holy Spirit to work through you doing good things?


Yes of course.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:02 pm 
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we have to differentiate because the grace that God uses to draw us back to him does not sanctify us. We are only sanctified if we cooperate with that grace. Take Cornelius for example. The Holy Spirit worked through him and caused him to speak in tongues, but we wasn't sanctified or regenerated until he was baptized.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:27 pm 
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coolmk20x wrote:
we have to differentiate because the grace that God uses to draw us back to him does not sanctify us.


When a question has been asked, an appropriate answer will provide the information sought. An inappropriate answer will ingnore the question asked, and will go off in another direction entirely. The question asked here was "Is it possible when in a state of mortal sin, ... for the Holy Spirit to work through you doing good things?" The very simple answer is yes, and a slightly more complete simple answer (which is the one I gave) is that this can be demonstrated by a sinner's desire to repent, showing that there is some grace in the sinner's soul which must have come from the Holy Spirit being at work there.

In order to understand that the Holy Spirit can work in the soul of a sinner, it is no more necessary to know first how the Schoolmen classified the types of grace, than it is necessary to know first the names of all the springs and gears inside a watch before one can use it to tell the time.

Custos


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:54 pm 
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you are missing the point. One who is in mortal sin and in the process of being restored to the Church is not yet restored. A repenting sinner must still seek absolution through the sacrament. So the Holy Spirit working in a sinner should not be the question, but rather if since the Holy Spirit is working in a sinner, is the sinner sanctified and there answer is a NO!! We only rejustified through the sacrament of confession.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:32 pm 
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coolmk20x wrote:
you are missing the point. ... the Holy Spirit working in a sinner should not be the question ...


Oh, it shouldn't, should it? So sorry, but it WAS the question anyway - so what do we do? Shall we spank the questioner and send him to bed without supper for doing something of which you disapprove?

You also have decided that I am wrong to answer the question asked, but should instead answer the question that you think "thecullscm" ought to have asked in the first place -- but didn't.

I am interested in this idea of yours that you are the best judge of what each of us should want to know, and can therefore direct which questions one may or may not ask.

You seem unaware that all may not agree with you about your question-authorizing authority, and that other people might actually believe themselves able to choose on their own what questions they pose.

And no, I have not missed the point at all.

Custos


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 Post subject: Re: Say goodnight, Gracie!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:16 am 
Custos wrote:
The person who said that we had to differentiate was coolmk20. You seem now to be attributing his opinions to me, because the only portion of my post that you quoted was -- the quote from him that I was disputing!!! My whole point (which seems to have gone clean over your head) was that such fine distinctions were totally unnecessary to answering the question asked.


Sorry, Custos. Blame it on the late hour. I misread the name in my quote. Your point did not go over my head. Rather, I was responding to coolmk20's statement.

Custos wrote:
I will, however, be glad to pick on you if your post indicates that you hold that any type of grace, no matter what kind it is, has any origin other than God.


No need. I tire of discussions like these on the endless distinctions to be made regarding the grace of God. To me, it is so much babble, and not especially edifying to the average Catholic, especially when we get into created and uncreated grace.

Have a good day!

Gordo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:32 am 
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There is no need to get into endless distinctions. The Church distinguishes between actual grace and sanctifying grace because the former everyone has access to but the latter only members of the Church have.

If we didn't distinguish between the two, we could say things like: Muslims, Protestants, atheists, and Catholics have grace. Now if we didn't distinguish between actual and sanctifying grace then this sentence would get pretty difficult to decipher. Actual grace make its possible for anyone to do a good act while sanctifying grace makes us true children of God.

I really don't think that this in an endless distinction, but rather it explains a truth which we should all recognize.

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Whence are we to find words enough fully to tell the happiness of that marriage which the Church cements, and the Eucharistic oblation confirms, and the benediction signs and seals; which angels carry back the news of to heaven, which the Father holds as ratified? -Tertullian

Uniformity with the Will of God by St. Alphonsus Liguori


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:00 pm 
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thank you that was my point. we need to distinguish between the two so to avoid the misunderstandings you bring up.


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